AA 60 at commerce seem to be the theme as of late so ill post mine. i get AA in the sb. decent guy who i dont know much about except he's tight and he played top pair in the bb in a multiway pot really weak against a bad player earlier in the night, raises. regular middle aged asian cutoff who's not good, but not in foolish ****** mode as far as i can tell either, 3 bets, i cap in the sb. they both call. my image is first raiser probably thinks i have something good and 3 bettor doesnt trust me and thinks im mad as a hatter, not from tonight, but from years of me doing my best deniro jr impersonations against him (commerce 60 insider joke).

the flop is 982 so i of course check it and they look perplexed and it gets checked around.

the turn is a 7 which i bet almost blind, first guy raises pretty tough and serious like, cutoff folds, i insta-3 bet, he sighs moans groans acts confused and calls.

i bet the river almost dark which is a T. im planning to bullet fold to a raise.

me plays goods pokering?

I've never 4-bet preflop and not bet the flop. People tell me "never" is not a good thing for one's poker game, so that's something I must be doing wrong.

I guess he puts you on A-K when you check the flop; then on a set when you 3-bet the turn. So if he raises the river, he'd have to have you beat. But there sure seems something odd about folding a big pot on the river when the other guy has absolutely no idea what you have and what you have is pocket aces.

I'm also curious as to the lack of flop bet.

Given that you described the other guy as tight and weak, I like the river.

bet the flop. i mean i'm sure you have reasons for not betting the flop like you'll get more action and they are both prolly drawing pretty slim, but there are two problems with that line of reasoning:

1. your relative position is very good for a flop bet. you have a kinda passive maybe weak guy caught between you and a guy with a pretty narrow range who thinks you're "mad as a hatter". I think the odds of the flop going bet-call-raise are too good for you to pass up a flop bet.

2. Both these guys seem likely to peel pretty lightly and almost drawing dead on the flop. We like it when our opponents are drawing to very few outs.

Givent that you didn't bet the flop, the turn and river are a-okay.

if you want to get trickey, why not just call the 3-bet pre-flop?

"why not just call the 3-bet pre-flop?"

i thought how many would chime in with this question first! anyway good question.

the answer is boring: the bb was a lagtardy lady i didnt want to tag along and she was significantly more likely to call two cold than three.

as for the flop, i wasnt trying to get tricky i just wanted max bets to go in on the flop and i figured checking was the best way for me to accomplish that on that flop. if it had come something like a broadway card or two or something i wouldve bet assuming id be raised so i could then reraise. but when it came ragged i figured anyone with a pair or decent A high would bet often enough that i could make more by c/ring. also if it got checked around on that flop it wasnt tragic because i have AA. so not tricky just strategically trying to make the biggest possible pot.

1. if the flop had been different like at least one broadway card or a flush draw or something i wouldve bet hoping to get raised like you say. but with this fairly dry ragged flop i didnt mind risking a free card sliding off in the hopes of getting a c/r in.

2. im not sure how light they will peel after i cap preflop out of the blind and bet a flop that couldve easily left them both high and dry. but if i give them the chance to think im messing with them or can be messed with, they might conveniently draw dead on the turn when it bricks off and they decide to now pay me off with AJ or something they were queuing up to fold for my single flop bet. so i think youre underestimating how often ill make up significant bets on the turn and river the times it gets checked through on the flop.

Mike not that I ever do it but letting a lagtard in the BB in for two bets doesn't sound all that bad.

-DeathDonkey

Must. Bet. The. Flop.

98x on the flop. Checked around. Turn is a 7. Seems terrible to allow this to happen if either 2 people in the hand with you drawing for free here, no?

I'd much rather play 3 ways than 4.

"they were queuing up to fold for my single flop bet."

This I don't see. The tight guy called two more preflop after he raised, and the other guy doesn't trust you and thinks you're mad as a hatter. Are they really gonna fold for one small bet on the flop?

Mike, your river bet is hoping to fold 2 pair right, or get value vs 1 pair?

The latter, since the former happens close to never.

Whenever a good player checks the flop out of rhythm into a bunch of players they have AA.

I agree. This doesn't mean other people know this/have the discipline to understand this.

FWIW, I'd rather check the 97x board than the 98x board.

This pot is pretty huge. If you're 100% positive this guy cannot bluff-raise, than b/f the river. But if you're if at all worried that he can, either b/c or c/c because folding the best hand in a pot this monstrous is a disaster.

Against a decent player, I like a bet because they'll be more apt to bluff-raise, than bluff if you check.

You were there and understand the players involved better than I, but I just don't think they're folding AJ+, KQ for one small bet in a 13 sb pot. I also think they're often raising TT+ then you can threebet.

1 pair. 2p isn't a concern but TT/JJ are.

I think checking this flop isn't going to do anything but confuse the other players in the hand, and possibly cause them to put in less bets than they normally would have. Most average players will see cap/check and think monster hand, which is exactly what you have. I think betting is going to build a bigger pot than checking. For example, if they have UI overcards, they'll probably take the free card and fold the turn when someone bets. Where as they'll call the 1sb now and fold on the turn UI. All you're doing here is costing yourself money from the hands that would peel the flop.

yeah i saw that coming. basically it was a matter of did i feel like making the hand easier to play or not and i decided id like to make it easier although if i had something like AKs or AQs or even TT i wouldve been more willing to let her in.

i would all day long so my guess is they would at least half the time if not a lot more.

value vs one pair or no pair. remember river rule number one:

nobody ever folds anything ever.

I defer to your table-presence judgment, and perhaps it's wrong to generalize, but the Commerce 60, in my experience, is not a game where the players fold a preflop capped pot for one small bet on the turn even if they completely whiffed.

That said, a point I have often made is that, paradoxically, many players will indeed tend to fold a bigger pot more readily than a smaller one if the flop bettor is the person who made the pot big preflop. So there might be more to what you posted than I initially considered.

i think this is a valid point you bring up andy, however I think it may only be the case on certain flops IE: scary ones they dont hit and can safely c/f.

im not sure i like the flop check though b/c nobody is folding for one SB on this kind of flop, so why not bet and hope it gets raised behind so you can put more action in?

the only way you'll get continued action on the turn is probably if someone gets stubborn and wont fold their AX or makes a pair/has a pair and wont fold.. so why check and let the TT/TJs of the world play bad and get there when they would most likely peel and/or raise the flop anyhow?

i wanted to post a hand i played differently than the norm. the 60 at commerce is kind of neat because it's a smaller player base than the 40 games and there are actually some players who pay attention to what's going on.

i bet the river and the guy thought forever and called and mhig. he then snarled something about my river value bet being really bad.

its even more fun when you value bet AK and your hand is obviously good and the dude with AQ goes I KNEW YOU DIDNT HAVE **** and throws the cards at the dealer