I spose since I'm a moderator of this forum I can post a hand every now and then to encourage discussion.

$100/200 6-handed folded around to KPR who opens on the button. Him and I have played a lot against eachother though not much in recent months.

I call in the BB with Kc2d.

Flop 6c3h6d --- I check, he checks.

Turn [6c3h6c] 5s --- I check, he checks.

River [6c3h6c5s] 4c --- ................?


What would be your 1st thru 3rd river choices. Should I ever be betting the turn (maybe a dumb thought given that you see the turn got checked behind)? For the sake of discussion, pretend it isn't KPR but it is someone who's game you respect and plays tough yet also checks behind more often than the 2+2 standard of 'never.'

I would bet this turn pretty often depending on what I think his checkback range is and how showdown bound he is. The turn card is pretty bad and from what I know of KPR, I dont think he autoshowsdown K high here. I would be surprised if he checked back A high on this flop, but maybe he does.

First of all, I would fold preflop.

Secondly, I think against someone as smart as KPR, you shouldn't be betting the turn much after he checks back. I will say that this particular turn card is pretty okay for you to bet a reasonably wide range if you wanted to go that route, but still I think the hand you have isn't generally the best candidate for that anyway.

Thirdly, I think that you should be bluffing this river with a lot of hands, especially if you are checking a lot on the turn, and so I like a bet here first. I doubt he raises too much, but would probably fold if he did, but I think folding and calling are probably reasonably close.

So I like b/f, b/c, and... I guess c/c comes in third but it's a distant third imo.

w/o history i think betting the turn is ok... i cant explain why and its probably wrong though

I would bet here. I think his hand is mostly K/Q high type things. I don't know if he'll call here, but I know he's not betting. I have no idea what to do with a raise because it's such an awful bluff raise spot. I'd probably call since this is the high end of my range here.

If you fold more than 20% of your range on the flop to a cb with hands like t4s, his range shoud be K high and Q high. In this case you should be 50%-50% and it s close. You lose value from Q high by checking and get value town by K high. On the other hand the river could be easier by checking and you would lose maybe just one bet against K high anyway.

If you dont fold anything on the flop, his range on the turn is weak and the bet is mandatory imo.

c/c seems the most likely way for money to go in with you winning. Nobody can check behind 3 times.

A bet by me is mandatory why? As a value-bet to protect my perhaps best hand? To try to fold 6 outers?

It really depends on the frequency at which he'd check the turn with a worse hand (and fold that hand if I bet the turn), but if he is going to bet the turn with a worse hand the pot is small enough I'd rather him bet the turn and risk letting him river me.

If he is strong, he has no reason to check the flop, and the turn card dont help his weak range. You could have anything and the 5 helps a lot of your garbage hands, you have a ton of semibluff hands in your range. From his perspective the fact you dont use this opportunity to bet the turn is suspicious, so I dont expect him to bet with JT when he cant rep anything to get a fold of a 6 or 3 outers.

I don't think the 2+2 standard is 'never' anymore, but definitely 'less than optimal'.

Being someone who does check behind a lot more than most, I'm guessing his checking range is a lot of middling range overcards (K, Q and J high) where he doesn't bet because he never expects you to fold better and doesn't want to have to get c/r and fold the turn. Since this is KPR, I'm sure there are some other value hands in here for balance.

I agree on the turn that the pot is now too small to worry too much about betting. Also, you have showdown value here and aren't getting A high out for the times he decides to check that back.

As for the river, it's definitely tricky. He's probably not bluffing when checked to and he's probably not calling a whole lot in this small pot now. I guess I bet and hope he looks me up with A high or K high.

Also, OnTheRail, I respect your game, but folding this pre is fairly decent mistake.

ok, so those who check turn... are you check/calling or check/folding?

also, if we think he's weak (like Q through T hi) a fair amount, and we also dont expect him to bluff, are we not better off just picking up the pot now?

Well, I would guess (with stove) your equity here is still only around 40% if he's checking back a bunch of better hands on the flop, which I think he is. That would make betting close right, assuming he doesn't bluff on that card, but then you get raised sometimes and sometimes he floats.

I'm a +1 with OTR15, I fold pre and bet turn and river for sure. Turn bet would be for value, not a bluff. Clearly we call turn if we check it we have a pretty good hand.

Why not?

I can see how you can argue that folding pre is wrong, but it's not a "fairly decent" mistake. And yes I do know what your equity looks like against a typical LAG/TAG button open.

I certainly agree with OTR15, folding these types of hands has made my blind play a hell of a lot easier. Its stupid to think that you have to defend every single Q and K high just because button steals at a certain %.

Yeah I would fold pf against a good btn.

Who cares if it makes your blind play easier? Giving up equity just so you won't be put in as many tough spots doesnt seem like a great idea if you are playing poker to make money.

It's stupid to think that you have to defend a hand if it's profitable to do so...really? I'm curious to hear an argument for this.

The problem is that it's going to be pretty tough to determine if it's profitable to defend K2o against a very good player. I'd be suprised if anyone could show me convincing evidence that defending k2o against a top player is profitable.

I can agree with that.

Yeah I don't think any of us are bad enough to just look at the equity and say "well that doesn't justify a call", we all know it plays ok hot and cold. It's just one of those hands that I can't see myself achieving my equity against a good player who has position over me.

Sorry for making this a preflop thread. Preflop is the least interesting street to talk about here imo.

Well, obviously you only need to be better than -0.5BB/hand with it. I contend that you will achieve that with this hand by calling. I will admit that it will be close though and will revise my remark from fairly decent to marginally -EV fold.

i'd check the turn a good % of the time because the pot is small and its a disaster to get raised even if we feel like we should have the best hand here a lot with our King high. its just not that important to protect our hand when the pot is this small, it's a disaster to get raised and we might be able to induce one street of bluff from him.

as played i would bet the river 100% because he's never going to bet but he may get curious and call with QT thinking you are betting the very bottom of your range enough.

i called with scnheids garbage pos k-4 hand flopped k-2-2- turn q ball schneids is drunk from darts but obv has ak die die die i played that hand cuz of u.