c/r c/f lines are dope because a lot of ppl will b/f stuff like 67s/K8 without a bdfd ... but u will get free cards every time they peel with Ax since they dont want to get owned

i will actually take that line sometimes when i c/r a random gutter and like a K overcard turns

the easiest way of balancing is by c/r c/c some weak made hands when the turn is an awful card

Yes, and I do stuff like this do on occasion, but specifically on occasion, if someone makes this a normal part of their game, I will be betting very close to 100% of my range that gets to the turn when they take this line.


c/r c/c is a pretty common line on boards like Q65A anyway, I'm not sure it's enough to balance a serious propensity to c/r c/f, but it certainly helps. But I think c/r c/c can easily be part of your game independent of c/r c/f.

I was just making a general point about balance and how sometimes it's not worth it. I don't think this play is +EV on it's own, so the only reason for making it is for balance reasons, but I'm not sure that will make up for the -EV of the play in the first place. Like Heisenb3rg said though, I haven't done the exact math. I just plugged my CO range in and notice that almost my entire range is river bound at least in this hand and I have position, which is going to make Oink have a difficult time on the river if I call twice. The one thing that might be going for this play is that there may be more bluffing outs than I had originally thought. If you have something like 33 or A6 in the CO and the turn comes a 9, it's going to be difficult to continue for example.

I think it's closer than I had original thought because of the bluffing outs, but I'd still prefer to do this on a board like KT5.

i totally agree

good discussion, I have a lab starting in a minute, but I'm curious if people are more apt to c/r if SB calls the flop. Then we have even more dead money, SB clearly isn't strong, and OTB has to think we have a stronger range raising at 2 people and it costs us the same price. I could be wrong here, but I might be a fish who just wants to get some view points on this.

I think this is an interesting play to try on a dry board when the passive SB calls. On this board I think it is suicide, the pot will get bloated, there are a million draws, and if you ever get caught once with Q4s here good luck getting those unimproved A his to fold in the future. You might get a little more respect from the original raiser, but there are many draws he can put you on as well. (as can the other player).

If SB had called, I'd be way way less inclined to make this play. One of the very attractive parts of doing this c/r is that on cards like a King (or sometimes 9), we gain a good amount of FE against the pf raiser... but with another dude peeling, that isnt going to be the case...