how can you possibly claim to "live and breath" tech but not have the slightest clue about the issues women deal with in the tech world?

that's like saying I live and breath the bible, but asking why so many people are getting upset about gay marriage?

Not trying to use this to refute or rebuke your argument but what does this even mean? Every word we use is some human defined term with a formal definition.

As far as the rest of your post I can't really follow what arguement you're trying to make so I'm not even going to attempt to enter into a debate.

Hmm like rape is an example of what humans have created but doesn't corrolate in nature.
As gender discrimination is something else human specific, that is resulted from roles that were created by humans themselves. Many variables mixing in the equation of how people are treated based on the gender of a person in society.

If you were to outline specifics, I could attempt to explain them better for you.

@Low key *poof* over your head

Too bad there aren't more men in nursing, massage, marketing, prenatal care, fashion... why is this whole conversation only isolated to the engineering fields?

No one screams "But we need more women in construction!"

And this whole debate must always be appended with "in tech." Surely, you've never tried to get a job as an administrative assistant or secretary, which if you are a guy, your odds are very low.

sorry, whenever i see someone spewing some certified derp, i tend to not give their posts rationalizing their horridly misguided beliefs that much attention.

I belive to grow as a person one has to always question themselves. If it seems obvious that the other person is wrong, challenge them with the views to why it is and wait for a response. I'm always taking every opinion and challenging my own to see what makes more rational sense.

What is derp to you and what is your reason that makes it derp?

I honestly think that is an example of males self-selecting bc the jobs are thought of as traditionally female roles and peer pressure as a result of taking what is classified as a female role. As far as I know men aren't discrimnated by institutionalized feminism or male descrimination in those fields (though I have no proof or have read anything on the subject). I won't argue though that the idea of jobs segregated or classified by society gender specific makes no sense and extends beyond STEM.

I'm sure construction workers do but for different reasons.

The fields I listed are highly discriminatory against men. When I worked in marketing, the gender gap in my particular area was something like 80% women / 20% men. I'm not going to say how hiring practices strongly influence this number...

The self-selection thing is kind of strange to bring up. Why is it wrong to say women self-select out of STEM fields (if you take away psychology and similar "woman" fields)? There are 13% more women in college than men. Surely they have the opportunity to take the same studies and are forced to take the same general eds.

first, there's a tons of facets re: "womens" jobs. If men are only hiring women to be office assistants and recruiters, whose fault is that?

my wife works in healthcare, which is heavily populated by women. Her field is about the 80/20 split you mention. However, even though men are only 20% of the employees, they make more for doing the same job. How's that work out?

as for why men commit more suicide than women? could be a number of things. Toxic masculinity, for instance, where men dissuade other men from seeking help for mental illnesses via peer pressure. Or perhaps more money is spent to specifically address what are thought of as 'vulnerable populations' and what's left isn't enough to help men who need it. (if they even seek help)

@io

derp is like pornography. you know it when you see it. For example, if someone says, "Now, I don't hate black people, but..." you know it's in your best interest to tune out. Or if they start a conversation about how we desperately need to close the Fed. Or if you see the talk about the hazards of vaccines a little more than you might expect from your average person.

if you really have the self-impression that you're "waaaay into tech," yet somehow find yourself spewing some Men's Rights talking points, either you were literally raised by wolves, or you're a helluva lot less into the industry than you think you are.

Low Key I really think you should go start at post #19052 and then read every post I made after that again.

Is that really the case that one sex has all the say in who is getting hired for all the positions.

Yes it could be a number of things but it all ends to the main point of societies gender discrimination that has caused people to behave certain ways that necessarily don't make much rational sense.

I think you're wrong to tune out and specially not bother to quote the exact sentence of why you're tuning out.

You must have glossed over some of my posts

You mean to tell me that there are zero women in hiring positions these days? HR, managers, interviewers are 100% guys, right?

One factor that plays heavily in pay differences is that men are more willing to ask for raises than women. There's a very large body of research on this topic that, not surprisingly, includes many woman researchers. If women and men both asked for raises at the same frequency and the pay divide still stands, then there is a strong point of discrimination, but this is a society where people have to make noise to get a raise.

***

The whole gender thing is disturbing for many reasons, I agree. The part that really gets me is how quickly people stand on their rooftops and blame MEN MEN MEN for everything.

A few years back, there was some controversy about a tech trade show booth that featured nearly naked women. The misandrists loudly said that these marketing companies exploited women and "forced" them to objectify their bodies.

There was a few problems with the whole argument. First, the owner of the marketing company who did the booth was owned by a woman. The lead marketer on the project was a woman who presumably had many women working under her, and the models were... well, women.

Who exactly "exploited" and "objectified" all these women? This isn't a human trafficking story were no party was acting on her free will. I totally get the argument that it is rude to women attending these events, but we have to be more careful when we point fingers and assume some collection of X is always wrong. The argument the people should be making here is that "woman are hurting women," but that will never be said because that blows a hole in the entire story people are trying to sell. People do have different ideas about right and wrong, and yes, some women are very happy being nearly nude models. Does that mean this was an appropriate demo booth for the context? Of course not, and most people, guys included, never would say it was.

Yes you can pinpoint parts of the world where men are at some sort of disadvantage, but men have never been systematically repressed like women have been.

the problem with hos is they spend more time yappin than working

that and they stink up the workplace like perfume and pussy. can't even tell em or you'll get a lawsuit.

I don't think a large gender gap is indication of discrimination, but if you've experienced it or have seen studies about it then that may be. I've never seen such a bias or experienced it myself or heard anything about it. Scholarly Google search does yield studies that show expected gender discrimination for stereotypical male/female roles.

I imagine the continued gender gap in traditionally male roles IS the result of of females self selecting, but for different reasons than men. Reasons which include expected or actual discrimination that make it hostile to women.

I do agree that it is society's problem though, not just a problem with men. It's institutionalized in the way we are raised, but I certainly think that women have the worst of it over men.

There's no denying this. It also doesn't mean that we are all bad for being male and we shouldn't feel any guilt for what our forefathers did. You and I are lucky to be brought up in a day and age where this conversation can be had and not scoffed at, but it comes down to everyone as an individual. If a woman wants a chance to program, she has that chance. There is no check mark on Coursera that shows women one set of classes and men another set of classes. It also comes down to you and I. If we are the door keeper to the company, it is up to us to bring women into the work place, suggest changes in company policy to give others a chance, and do our best to maintain equality within the world we create. There is a fine line between discrimination and diversity, but you get the point.

HN is an unhealthy microcosm of the tech world. Not sure if you been to SF or anywhere in the valley, but you can easily spend half a day in those areas and count the women walking around on one hand. It is kind of hard to hire people that don't exist.

I have a very good friend who is an engineer. There is no doubt, from listening to her stories, that gender discrimination is in full-force. We never really discussed this, but I've showed her some of the things people are trying to do to get women into STEM and she just rolls her eyes. Her answer is "just buy your daughter Lego blocks. That's what worked for me."

The changes aren't going to happen now now now, but they will come and there is evidence that things are shifting. I think much of it will change when the expectations to work 14 hour days are lifted, and other items like that.

With time, gender roles change:



I've definitely heard the opposite from women. Things like men have too much pressure, crappy selection of clothes, have more rules to follow, forced to sign up for the draft, etc.

iosys,

I think you can be pretty interesting at times, but it seems like you're gonna eat a ban if you seriously want to turn this thread into your terrible hot takes thread.

Let's not forget that this convo started with the idea that it makes sense for a tech writer to conceal their identity if they happen to not be straight male due to the levels of harassment non-straight makes face online in the tech world.

Not entirely sure how we got to men's suicide rates and pay gaps. But maybe we should try to wrap this up before we all end up hating each other.

indeed

iosys if you want to start a thread in the Politics forum, I'm sure it will garner some good discussion.

LOL. This can't be a serious list. Crappy selection of clothing? According to who? More rules to follow? ****in LOL. Forced to sign up for the draft? I have so much anxiety about getting drafted...

unchained probably would be less likely to get all involved banned

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/21...e-men-1340438/

Unchained sucks.

It's the only forum where you can't call someone "aspie" or insult their family!

Unchained!

Pretty common in child care/daycares for example. I've also heard not so great stories about nursing homes.
It's a thing and it happens.

Which embodies everything that is wrong with discourse on the internet.