FWIW, iPhone starting at $200 doesn't make it more expensive than the majority of popular Androids. The Nexus 6 starts at $650. The Samsung Galaxy and Notes run higher than that, I think.

I haven't used an Apple much, but if you go pound-for-pound at that price range, there is no way anyone can say that a $200 stock Android is better than an iPhone.

agree but from here: http://www.verizonwireless.com/smartphones/

looks like galaxy s5 is same price as iphone 6. so i think it's more like you're matching top of the line androids vs iphones....

counterpoint: http://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phones/...alaxy-s-5.html

Granted, T Mobile is plan-free, but they are popular.

IMO, this logic is flawed. Take a simplistic case of 2 products with 2 metrics each. If each is equally superior to the other in one metric, they have the same marketshare, but one is more expensive - you can't draw the conclusion that there's some metric 3 involved. It might just be that overall people value one metric more than the other.

It's the same with the iPhone/Android. They make different decisions. Just because their decisions come out roughly even for you doesn't mean everyone sees it that way.

Another example, when I bought my Android device it was because I could play on Full Tilt with an Android device but not with an Apple device. That one metric meant way more to me than anything else.


Sure, maybe "shiny and cool" gets some people in the door. But you don't build an iPhone dynasty without doing lots of other things right. I think there are probably lots of examples of people using a product where the manufacturer knows more about why people use and keep using a product than the consumer.

Another example, The BlackBerry was ****ing horrible to use for a long period of time. My brother had one and was showing me one time how it was like a long convoluted 5-step process to switch a setting like mute. He knew he hated that about it. I bet few people would point to an Android/iPhone and talk about how they love being able to mute their phone easily. The ability to build a phone that doesn't piss people off is a thing as well.

I think that, as a general rule, people go with the easy choice more often than not. iPhone is a stable brand and generally has great reviews. There is also a lot of social confirmation that comes with an Apple.

We can't reasonably expect people to research a slew of devices and make the most intelligent choice, and any assumption that derives from technical intelligence is bound to be flawed to some degree, unless one of us is a phone reviewer. Yes, we will be spending a lot of time with our phones, but think of all of the things we spend a lot of time with that has a ton of features we don't understand, like our furniture. We spend 1/3 of our lives sleeping on a bed, but I guarantee that not a one of us can give an intellectual reason about why it is better than the next bed, or how it compares to another. At the end of the day, we choose a bed because of many factors that have nothing to do with spring-strength or whatever other metric is important in that world.

dave i think those a great points.

my problem is that most people, rather than understanding that their decisions are essentially made in ignorance and are likely to be wrong, instead zealously cling to their heuristics and convince themselves that what they have is the best. nowhere more so than with technology.

I completely agree.

But in a very big picture way - I suspect that a big part of Apple's success is that they're able to keep people happy in their bubble of ignorance. And that's very different than just making shiny and cool phones.

Tech people fall victim to this, and we (collectively) should know better, so what hope does your technophobic friends have? I have no idea why people cling to it, but I guess the phone is an extension to us more than anything else we have. How many people do you know that, if they lost their phone, they'd essentially lose all of their friends?

*shrug*

+1, and that in essence is why right leaning 'free market' political ideologies such as 'libertarianism' are doomed to fail. (Sorry for bringing politics in but it's interesting).

Don't forget though that whatever device someone currently uses is always going to have an advantage. It takes work for me to switch devices/operating systems.

At no point has someone given me an advantage of Android that would make it worthwhile switching (and there are a number of negatives given the other software I use) - and that's why I bought the 6+. When I bought my first 2 iPhones (moving from a ****ty old phone and from an Android) I was unhappy with what I had and thought it was worth the effort to switch to something different. Even when I switched to Android I had a reason that I thought was worth the effort of switching.

It's tricky too because you have to keep introducing new features while keeping enough of a connection to what you had before that people think its worth upgrading but that its not too much work to upgrade.

Apple's really good at that.

the more we talk the more i think we agree on the facts but only disagree on whether those facts add up to "shiny and cool." i think the reductionism of that phrase bothers you more than it does me. i've been saying the whole time that they do a pretty good job with their product, usually a level better than the competition in the past and possibly slightly better now. my point is just, especially now, the race is way closer than enthusiasts want to believe.

and i agree with your points about the cost of switching...

We agree on the facts, but I don't think "shiny and cool" is reductionist - I just think its the wrong conclusion to draw from the facts (like I explained in post 15279 with my simple example).

It misses the point that the different decisions (meaningful, non-trivial decisions) made are the reason for most iPhone users and its not at all a cosmetic / style reason.

Do you work with computers? You seem fundamentally ignorant about how they work. Anyway, keep on keeping on, there are lots of excellent Android phones out there that will probably make you happier than Apple's phones.

You make it sound like Samsung and Google have spent years trying to make something dull and lame. The phone market isn't as simple as it was even 3 years ago when there was a marked difference in quality between iPhones and Android phones as well as between iOS and Android. The top of the line phones these days are neck and neck with a slight feature lead going to Samsung who haven't met a gimmicky feature they haven't added to a phone in hopes it becomes the next multi touch. Dismissing Apple users as shallow fashionistas implies that Android users have a keen insight and know the truth, when they it's just as likely they are cheap and buy cheap things because they don't know the difference between **** and shinola. Neither of which is true.

Conversation I've had more than once:
"Hey, look at my new Samsung Galaxy."
-- Coolio.
"I spent $600 on it, so it is really good."
-- I'll bet it is much better than an iPhone.
"What's an iPhone?"

You can change the wording to include any popular phone. The conversation is different, but the idea is the same.

Techies often forget that end-users are often incredibly ignorant (and not in a bad way, really). These conversations about image, use, functionality, is really no more than projecting the 10% who gives a **** to the the 90% who wouldn't know or care.

Seriously, try taking your non-tech friend to a phone store. See if she points to a Windows phone because it looks pretty, then grab her hand away and try to break down why it is a bad purchase.

daveT - in a lot of ways that's how I am with a phone too. When people talk about the latest features on a phone, I care really little about them.

yes! finally someone gets what i'm saying!

totally. this is so true.

fist bump, kerowo.

I still hold on to my technophobic ideals. I'm not the slightest bit fascinated by gadgets, computers, or anything, outside of their utilitarian purposes. Every time someone shows me a bunch of features, I'm thinking, what's the point of that? Why is a stylus a good accessory for a phone?

Lots of people project their ideals on other people and assume the whole world is fascinated by what is important to them. The flip is that people project what they believe a person should be just because. You can imagine the shock people have when they learn that I don't know how to use Power Point and don't know what half the specs on a computer mean. I'm guessing they are shocked to know that I tend to shower every day, prefer to work with a light on, and don't have a piss bottle at my desk.

I was with you until you talked about showering every day. Seems like a lot of work.

I have a purely theoretical question. A hiring company has an open house/workshop one day. Assuming everything else is equal, when the hiring manager decides who to hire will having attended the open house rank you higher on the list?

If all things actually were equal - maybe?

But IMO attending the open house would rank very lowly in things I'd care about. The main thing I guess might be that you'd have more of an opportunity to make an impression/sell yourself.

How I can identify PT4's HUD panels?
I've tried via WinSpy but I cannot detect anything...

::thumbsup::

I think that's exactly what people with a programmer mindset don't like. It's great for "typical customers". Everything from one place, no hassle gluing stuff together but I feel like wearing a straightjacket that I have to wiggle out of to do things I know are possible.