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07-29-2011 , 02:33 AM

#976

daveT

S.A.G.E. Master

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 23,955

I swear, I attempt to use the mouse as little as possible. It is nice to have a run option (f5 in IDLE or C-t in DrRacket), but in emacs it is C-x C-e, which is like why?

fine, here's a cool video in support of vim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCiVCiku3cM

Quote

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07-29-2011 , 02:34 AM

#977

goofyballer

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Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 70,719

While thinking about the reasons why I still use the mouse (I'm mostly a keyboarder but use the mouse occasionally while programming), I realized that I didn't know the keyboard shortcut for looking up symbols in the IDE extension I use and just figured it out what it is, which will surely lead to much increased productivity down the line. Thanks, thread!

One reason I use the mouse that I can't think of a good replacement for, though: using the mouse wheel to scroll through code looking for a particular snippet. imo it's easier to keep your eyes in the same place and scroll the code through it, rather than using page up/page down and having to scan up and down each page, or holding ctrl+down which doesn't have variable speed like the mouse wheel does.

Quote

07-29-2011 , 04:55 AM

#978

greg nice

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Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 10,001

ctrl+f, type in snippet word

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07-29-2011 , 05:11 AM

#979

Gullanian

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 14,014

Am I the only one who likes using a mouse? Am I a noob for this?

Quote

07-29-2011 , 09:09 AM

#980

gaming_mouse

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Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

One reason I use the mouse that I can't think of a good replacement for, though: using the mouse wheel to scroll through code looking for a particular snippet. imo it's easier to keep your eyes in the same place and scroll the code through it, rather than using page up/page down and having to scan up and down each page, or holding ctrl+down which doesn't have variable speed like the mouse wheel does.

In Vim,

"Ljjjjj"

That is: "L" moves cursor to bottom of screen
Then tap "j" to move down one line at a time.
and if you hold down "j" it will scroll.

Quote

07-29-2011 , 05:36 PM

#981

daveT

S.A.G.E. Master

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 23,955

Suppose you have a code snippet:

Code:

.....
....
....
....
...
...
...
.....
....

and you want to put it in a function now, so you have

Code:

def myFun():
....
....
....
....
....
....
....
....

I would normally highlight the body and then C-] (in Pyhon, obv).

It seems like this is pretty darn fast, but I am sure there is a great non-mouse answer for this.

Quote

07-29-2011 , 06:49 PM

#982

gaming_mouse

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Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

I assume you are asking about indenting?

In vim, you'd hit "V" to highlight in visual block mode, then use the ordinary movement functions to bring bring the cursor down to the last line you want indented (might be something like L or M and a couple j or k), then you tap ">>" and you're done. Indenting imo is quite a bit nicer in vim than with a mouse.

EDIT: also if you are just indenting a few lines, say 5, you can do "5>>" on the first line and it's done, no need for visual mode

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07-29-2011 , 08:50 PM

#983

Zurvan

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Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 37,385

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyleb

1) become proficient at using CTRL, HOME, END, DEL, SHIFT, arrow keys
2) ?
3) never use the mouse again
4) ?
5) increase coding speed by about 1.4% but gain the ability to laugh at everyone who uses the mouse

Editing code - particularly large blocks of code - is so much faster in Emacs than a Windows style IDE. The speed boost is significant. A few great features that just don't exist in Windows without moving off the home row:

Page up/down
Forward/back by word or paragraph
Highlight/copy blocks of text

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveT

Suppose you have a code snippet:

Code:

.....
....
....
....
...
...
...
.....
....

and you want to put it in a function now, so you have

Code:

def myFun():
....
....
....
....
....
....
....
....

I would normally highlight the body and then C-] (in Pyhon, obv).

It seems like this is pretty darn fast, but I am sure there is a great non-mouse answer for this.

In emacs, you type the function name at the start, Ctrl+Space to create a mark, scroll to the end of the block, enter your close point and do M-x indent-region (I think that's the command; I have a shortcut for this)

Quote

07-30-2011 , 09:59 AM

#984

TheIrishThug

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,223

Dave,
Part of the thing I think most people who are not sold on keyboard editors yet miss is the time it takes to move your hand to the mouse and back again. It doesn't seem like it takes that much time, but it adds up.

Think of it like GPS directions. Some times the fastest route has lots of extra turns and seems more complicated. It is up to you to decide if you want to get there the fastest way possible or the way that is conceptually easy.

Quote

07-30-2011 , 07:15 PM

#985

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,183

Meh. There are probably dozens of ways to increase your productivity more effectively than becoming a keyboard only typist. It's like being 50 pounds over weight and spending an extra 2 grand on a road bike because it weighs half a kilo less.

Quote

07-31-2011 , 12:53 AM

#986

TheIrishThug

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,223

True. I'm just trying to explain to Dave why it can make a difference. I grew up in a Windows, GUI only world and know where he's coming from. Even now I'm in a hybrid zone where I use the mouse for some things but not others. I like having the option to use whatever I want to do things quickly. This is why I have an ahk script that lets me copy and paste with just my mouse.

Quote

07-31-2011 , 01:38 AM

#987

daveT

S.A.G.E. Master

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 23,955

The prospect of learning how to turn my keyboard into a 100-function gamepad sounds exciting, but I think I should concern myself with other things first.

I'm hitting an ugly wall because my math is not up to par with some of the problem sets. I'm not feeling up to the challenge to do the requisite calculus courses, which there are two of. Then on to mathematics for computer scientists (which is really a bunch of proofs), then intro algorithms. After that, I think it's all book reading then a few other courses.

Quote

07-31-2011 , 03:28 AM

#988

nextgenneo

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,183

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gullanian

I find Paypals IPN OK to work with but yeah docs are massively out of date and unhelpful.

Yeah, it was hell implementing a paypal express checkout solution.

Quote

07-31-2011 , 10:40 AM

#989

Zurvan

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Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 37,385

Quote:

Originally Posted by nextgenneo

Yeah, it was hell implementing a paypal express checkout solution.

Yeah, it's much harder than it seems like it should be. OTOH, the sample code is pretty plug and play

Quote

07-31-2011 , 02:31 PM

#990

nextgenneo

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,183

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zurvan

Yeah, it's much harder than it seems like it should be. OTOH, the sample code is pretty plug and play

I've found that google checkout was just as annoying.

Amazon Checkout was probably the best out of the big payment solutions.

Quote

07-31-2011 , 06:56 PM

#991

daveT

S.A.G.E. Master

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 23,955

Where is "too much (x)?"

On one extreme, we have:

and the other:

The first, we put in well... nothing of substance; the other appears to be the entire text of your favorite book on one sheet of paper.

Somewhere in between all of this lies a wonderful balance of legibility, usability, and sense of completion, contrasted between over-complete and under-complete.

Regardless of the actual solution, which I fear translates loosely to 'it depends,' it is a fun exercise to abstract things down at every little element of the main code block.

So start up with this:

Code:

(define blowUp
  (lambda (x y z)
    (cond 
      ((and (< x y) (< x z))
       (+ (* y y) (* z z)))
      ((and (< y x) (< y z))
       (+ (* x x) (* z z)))
      ((+ (* x x) (* y y))))))

Where did this go too far?

Code:

(define square
  (lambda (x)
    (* x x)))

(define addSquare
  (lambda (x y)
    (+ (square x) (square y))))
    
(define cmpr
  (lambda (x y)
    (if (< x y)
        #t
        #f)))

(define andCmpr
  (lambda (a b c)
    (if (and (cmpr a b) (cmpr  a c))
        #t
        #f)))

(define addUp 
  (lambda (x y z)
    (cond 
      ((andCmpr x y z) 
       (addSquare y z))
      ((andCmpr y x z)
       (addSquare x z))
      ((addSquare x y)))))

I mean, disregarding syntactic sugar and stuff.

Quote

07-31-2011 , 07:09 PM

#992

gaming_mouse

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Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

"Where did this go too far?"

The 3 functions that are not "square" are all pointless and diminish clarity.

Quote

07-31-2011 , 07:15 PM

#993

TheIrishThug

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,223

You can make it a little cleaner by dropping the lambda.

Code:

(define (square x)
  (* x x))

Quote

07-31-2011 , 08:12 PM

#994

daveT

S.A.G.E. Master

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 23,955

for giggles, in Python:

Code:

def compare(a, b):
    if a < b:
        return True
    return False

def andCompare(a, b, c):
    if compare(a, b) and compare(a, c):
        return b, c
    elif compare(b, c) and compare(b, a):
        return c, a
    return a, b
    
def square(x):
    return x*x

def addSquare(x, y):
    return square(x) + square(y)

def blowUp(x, y, z):
    a, b = andCompare(x, y, z)
    sol = addSquare(a, b)
    print sol

Amateur stuff, I know, but the contrast is pretty cool to me.

I think I need to go to sleep.

Quote

08-01-2011 , 08:41 AM

#995

jjshabado

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Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,732

Code:

def compare(a, b):
    if a < b:
        return True
    return False

def andCompare(a, b, c):
    if compare(a, b) and compare(a, c):
        return b, c
    elif compare(b, c) and compare(b, a):
        return c, a
    return a, b

I would instantly not hire anyone that would write these methods.

Quote

08-01-2011 , 09:52 AM

#996

Gullanian

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 14,014

Code:

def compare(a, b):
    if a < b:
        return True
    return False

I don't know Python but wouldn't a better function definition be:

Code:

def(compare(a,b):
    return a < b;

But then you might as well not have it at all

Code:

if compare(a, b)

turns to

Code:

if a < b

Seems wholly uneccserary unless I'm missing something

Quote

08-01-2011 , 10:34 AM

#997

redCashion

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 2,441

If I wanted to make a small app that was an "addon" to meetup.com and i called it meetup______ (where underscores == my app name), there aren't any trademark legality issues here are there? It's possible that I would charge a small fee for usage since the app doesn't currently exist.

Quote

08-01-2011 , 11:28 AM

#998

gaming_mouse

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Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gullanian

Seems wholly uneccserary unless I'm missing something

you're not missing anything

Quote

08-02-2011 , 12:27 AM

#999

daveT

S.A.G.E. Master

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 23,955

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjshabado

Code:

def compare(a, b):
    if a < b:
        return True
    return False

def andCompare(a, b, c):
    if compare(a, b) and compare(a, c):
        return b, c
    elif compare(b, c) and compare(b, a):
        return c, a
    return a, b

I would instantly not hire anyone that would write these methods.

At best, I would be applying at a tech company to mop floors and refill the coffee. I would be highly ashamed to do anything like this for an interview even if I did apply for the janitor job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gullanian

Seems wholly uneccserary unless I'm missing something

Not missing anything. It is a mundane practice for me to see how much I can abstract stuff, and then compare what it would look like in Python and Scheme.

I know, it's probably pointless and stupid, but I was thinking I might discover something. I'm not trying to solve 42 or anything spectacular, just sating my curiosity.

The book then goes off in another direction, talking about nesting the functions and using lexical scoping because, you know, in very large programs it may not be a good idea to use global abstractions since you risk using the names somewhere else and that would be bad, which makes one ponder why abstract in the first place, or more specifically, makes one ponder the value of using a thought-of abstraction. Mind you that the course uses over-kill abstractions and I suspect this is done for the purpose making me think of this stuff.

Nesting and lexical scope is something else that I would have to try in Python, since I haven't been exposed to this concept yet. Well, lexical scoping occurs in classes, but it should be interesting to see what happens with nested functions; I haven't been exposed to nested functions yet. I won't worry about closures yet.

Quote

08-02-2011 , 12:32 AM

#1000

gaming_mouse

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

dave,

the playing around stuff you are doing now is not worthless. i think its a great way to learn.

also, you have way too much respect for the mythical "company," "interview," and average working programmer.