that's it in a nutshell. control freaks who don't understand science feel that people who choose not to get vaccinated are putting them (control freaks) at risk.

it makes sense though. i mean public school teaches and promotes drug use, casual sex, and gay sex, so vaccinations against those lifestyle diseases fit right in.

Here's my take without spending days going through the research:

- Vaccines have a small risk not unlike any other run of the mill medication you'll ever take.
- The benefits greatly outweigh the harm for the big diseases ranging in severity from smallpox to mumps
- Vaccines for common, not particularly serious illnesses like the flu are probably unnecessary and not advised except in the immune compromised.

PLO you're wrong again, I see you didn't look that up either or address anything else I said in my post. You're an idiot and it's fine to hurt yourself but don't **** up your children's lives because you can't don't understand.

people underestimate the seriousness of flu because most times people say they have flu they don't.

Right, the flu is fairly serious among the elderly and the immunocompromised, but the flu is a very specific infection with the influenza virus. Most people who say they have the flu have anything from a cold to a bacterial infection, most of which is self-limited and not serious. They really have "flu-like symptoms."

LOL at people thinking that flu is harmless.
Plenty of information available on all these diseases from the CDC, for intelligent people that want to believe science over Jenny Mccarthy.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/index.htm
Influenza: The Disease
Influenza (the flu) is a contagious respiratory illness caused by influenza viruses. It can cause mild to severe illness, and at times can lead to death. The best way to prevent the flu is by getting a flu vaccination each year. Every year in the United States, on average 5% to 20% of the population gets the flu; more than 200,000 people are hospitalized from flu complications, and; about 36,000 people die from flu. Some people, such as older people, young children, and people with certain health conditions, are at high risk for serious flu complications.

Jenny McCarthy's hot though.

For a reference point, this is about the same number of people who die from breast cancer in the US each year. No one would be foolish enough to suggest breast cancer is harmless. It nigh infuriating there isn't a system in place to prevent most of these deaths. It's only a logistical issue, not curing a new disease.

Also, PLO please look up 'herd immunity'.

LOL, you do not need to worry about PLO's children. He is merely a troll who makes ridiculous "scientific" claims and defends them to the end, completely ignoring real science.

This is not the first time he has done this in this forum, nor is it the last. I am sure like the rest of resposible American parents, if he ever has children he will get whatever vaccinations for them their doctor recommends, regardless of his ridiculous personal theories.

well i don't have children, but i do have pets, and they are all UNVACCINATED, as they are housepets.

I'm sure you are recoiling in horror at the threat i pose to you and your pets by not vaccinating, for example, cats that never leave the house.

i know what herd munity is. it's when high riskers want low-no riskers to share the side effects and costs.

also, if hepB is such a problem, why are immigrants, legal and illegal, let into this country unvaccinated? any answers?

either you have to admit that vaccines such as hepB are largely unnecessary, or you must admit that immigrants, esp. illegals, pose a grave health risk to americans.

<liberals head asplode>

just for the sake of argument, what about the chidlren who are harmed/killed by vaccines? just the cost of doing business?

Obviously these vaccines are killing children the way measles, polio and whooping cough left thousands dead or blind, deaf or brain-damaged.

From the FDA...
Now let's see your statistics on how many people vaccines kill, you make the insane claims you provide the proof.

So either vaccines are unnecessary or immigrants are dangerous? That doesn't pass kindergarten logic. You even managed to classify illegal immigrants as greater risks, bravo.

Next time post some facts (with sources). Mmmmmkay?

c'mon PLO is a nutter but the risk of disease is increased by immigration and illegal immigration should be more worse.

Of course also risky are: tourism, going to hospital, going to work, using a train, casinos, sex etc

Best he stays at home with his pets.

He said illegal immigrants were a bigger threat than legal immigrants, which is most likely false and he didn't provide any proof.

it probably is true and if it isn't true it probably should be and . No proof really required, its a reasonable assumption.

No it isn't, and the burden of proof falls on the claimant.

No. It obviously a reasonable claim - I can't believe you really disagree. there's no burden on us to prove its a reasonable claim.

infectious diseases are spread by people moving about and those who are part of normal (legal) society are less likely to be a risk than those who aren't.

I was wrong, I didn't know legal immigrants had to get a whole host of immunizations. Thank you for correcting me. ;-)

So PLO's argument
So that means legal immigrants are unlikely to have diseases we vaccinate against, leaving only the illegal immigrants and that makes being vaccinated against hepB an even better idea.

I didn't know that either but it makes sense. Also legal immigrants are less likely to actually be suffering from an infectious disease without being treated and are more likely to have their children vaccinated.





Absolutely. In general, immigration (esp' illegal) and tourism are reasons to be vaccinated. They are also reasons to try to improve healthcare and vaccination regimes in other countries. Its also a reason to try to integrate illegal immigrants.

I'm sure PLO is in favour of all of that

re: illegals, one of the main data points is that hepB is much much more common in south america/africa/asia etc.

re: 137 deaths from measles or whatever, i submit that if you did research you would find >137 deaths from vaccination. basically i'm saying you have to do risk/reward assessment, and you're saying no, you just do what you're told and take the consequences.

also i let a main point slip by where you changed my statement. i didn't say 90% of *recommended* vaccines are ineffective/harmful, i said 90% of vaccines are. these would include smallpox, anthrax, etc., including a bunch for diseases that are no big deal unless you are immunocompr. let's not forget that fed gov tried to force millions of americans to take smallpox and/or anthrax, and they got told to **** off. that tells you they agree with me (or i agree with them), and that they definitely disagree with your vaccinate at all costs philos.

I mean, just google sv40 if you don't think there are/were any risks. also i don't really want to argue sv40 specifically since it was one of hundreds if not thousands of contaminants.

caveat emptor
caveat lector
<somebody translate 'patient beware'>

actually i have mexicans in my family so ideally i would like US to annex mexico and turn the ****hole that is mexico into a nice place like the US.

Why don't you look it up, you're making the claim. Let's look at world statistics from the World Health Organization.

"In 2006, it was estimated that there were 242 000 measles deaths globally: this translates to about 663 deaths every day or 27 deaths every hour."

So if we vaccinated everyone you think the vaccine would kill more than 242,000 people? Sure.

You said "i think everyone can agree that 90% of vaccinations are superfluous/harmful. also a lot hard science in japan that newborns should not be vaccinated, vaccination should start at 12 months."

If you were talking about vaccines in general you would have said I think 90% of vaccines are superfluous/harmful. "Vaccinations" implies the normal set of vaccines, especially when you're talking about children's vaccinations in the next sentence. But please backpedal some more.

Since the last case of smallpox in the U.S. occurred in 1949 I don't think you're at much risk. From the CDC:

"Routine smallpox vaccination among the American public stopped in 1972 after the disease was eradicated in the United States. Until recently, the U.S. government provided the vaccine only to a few hundred scientists and medical professionals working with smallpox and similar viruses in a research setting."

From the WHO:

"The anthrax vaccine is not approved for widespread use because it has never been comprehensively tested in human trials. The vaccine is sometimes given to people who are likely to be exposed to anthrax through their occupation, for example, tannery workers, or to military personnel. It is not widely available, nor is its use for mass immunization recommended."

When? Where? Why? What? Who?
The fact that people agree with you doesn't mean anything. To quote Carlin, Think about how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that. Next time use sources.

You name dropped it probably after reading that "Natural Cures" book or someones' get rich scheme. Studies Find No Evidence That SV40 is Related to Human Cancer

So how many people did SV40 kill? What are the "hundreds if not thousands of contaminants" in the other vaccines? Give sources please.

It's "Caveat Patiens"

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

This is basically true.

honestly i'm not tryhing to be a jerk. but you seem to be somewhat uninformed. the doctors and firefighters and police basically refused to take the smallpox vaccine. it was a big issue at the time, and one which was directly analogous to our argument here.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/...pox/index.html



also take chicken pox. it's not a big deal if kids get it, i wouldn't mind if my kids got it, i got it as a kid, it didn't even make me sick just uncomfortable. it's not a big deal. polio, on the other hand, is a differnent animal. maybe saying it that way is more palatable to you.