should all good athiest sceintist should believe in...... - Page 2

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should all good athiest sceintist should believe in......

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11-14-2007 , 12:38 AM

#26

teampursuit

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 124

Quote:

" Gravity is roughly 1039 times weaker than electromagnetism. If gravity had been 1033 times weaker than electromagnetism, "stars would be a billion times less massive and would burn a million times faster."

The nuclear weak force is 1028 times the strength of gravity. Had the weak force been slightly weaker, all the hydrogen in the universe would have been turned to helium (making water impossible, for example).

A stronger nuclear strong force (by as little as 2 percent) would have prevented the formation of protons--yielding a universe without atoms. Decreasing it by 5 percent would have given us a universe without stars.

If the difference in mass between a proton and a neutron were not exactly as it is--roughly twice the mass of an electron--then all neutrons would have become protons or vice versa. Say good-bye to chemistry as we know it--and to life."

Wait a second. There is a problem here. And it is NOT the points made by the silly atheists. Rather it is this: GOD doesn't have to worry about these constraints. Do you think he needs to make the weak force 1028 times the force of gravity to have water or humans?

If your argument has merit (a ticklish question that I have not yet answered for myself) it would only be an argument for that six year old from the fifth dimension playing with his chemistry set. Or for the god of Einstein and my father. A god who is constrained by laws more powerful than he is. Not the one who will decide on your afterlife.

Hawking gave a talk (at the Vatican, of all places, around 1986) called something like "How much choice did God have in creating the Universe?". David, you're exactly right, I think, when you say "none".

We are the way we are because things were the way they were.

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11-14-2007 , 03:01 AM

#27

Stu Pidasso

banned

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 12,373

Quote:

The answer is no. A multi-universe model might make the most sense, but that is not implied by a "no God" assumption. Rather it can only be justified according to the best or most likely extrapolations from theoretical physics and cosmology.

I think you are wrong Bluebassman,

This isn't a question about physics or cosmology. Although it touches greatly on those things, the realm of this question is philosphy....at least until physics can test for the exsistence alternate universes.

Stu

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11-14-2007 , 12:19 PM

#28

bluesbassman

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,360

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Fine. Once we start speculating about a multi-universe, the boundary between physics and philosophy becomes fuzzy. No reason to quibble over that.

Your original proposition is indeed a question of philosophy, and the answer is still no.

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11-14-2007 , 06:08 PM

#29

MaxWeiss

banned

Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,173

I don't know much about the multiverse theory, but I can tell it it is INFINITELY more likely than god. Multiverses are theorized because they are one explanation that fits the data. God is theorized because he can fit anything and is comforting.

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11-15-2007 , 05:50 AM

#30

dragonystic

banned

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,207

you dont necessarily need more than 1 universe. whos to say that this is the first iteration of this universe? it could have flared into existence, with no life flourishing, collapsed on itself, and repeat. until there is life as we know it.

as to your specific question, my answer is no! a good scientist bases his beliefs on the relevant data. just like god, or an afterlife...there is no possible way to determine if there are more universes outside of our own. to believe, atleast with our current knowledge, would be purely faith.

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11-15-2007 , 03:31 PM

#31

Stu Pidasso

banned

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 12,373

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God is theorized because he can fit anything and is comforting.

Thats exactly how I feel about alternate-universes/ multi-universe models. You can concieve of an alternate universe and imagine it anyway way you want to fit any problem you want. No one can say you're wrong because no one can test for or disprove the existence it.

I'm I wrong to think that way?

I ask the good atheist in this forum. Where is your faith? In the single universe model or the multi-universe model.

Stu

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11-15-2007 , 04:04 PM

#32

madnak

Cooler than Sammy Hagar

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 19,742

Quote:

I'm I wrong to think that way?

Yes.

The many worlds interpretation of quantum events is relevant because it explains certain observations. To put it another way, it suggests that there are other universes connected to our own universe. It's speculation but we may be able to test it eventually. The scientific fact is that we have no idea how many universes there are.

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11-15-2007 , 04:25 PM

#33

Stu Pidasso

banned

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 12,373

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To put it another way, it suggests that there are other universes connected to our own universe. It's speculation but we may be able to test it eventually. The scientific fact is that we have no idea how many universes there are.

You say I'm wrong but in the very next breath agree the multi-universe model is just speculation. Sounds like you're promoting a double standard. Its wrong to take comfort in the speculative existence of a creator, but ok to take comfort in the speculative existence of many worlds, alternate universes, etc.

Madnak, what does your gut tell you is correct. One universe or many?

Stu

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11-15-2007 , 04:40 PM

#34

madnak

Cooler than Sammy Hagar

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 19,742

My "gut" isn't a valid approach to this question. I'm not indulging you.

Nobody has said it's wrong to take comfort in the speculative existence of a creator, nor has anyone said it's okay to take comfort in the speculative existence of many worlds. Personally? I think it's fine to take comfort in any speculation. Just recognize that it's only speculation and that others may see it differently.

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11-15-2007 , 04:54 PM

#35

Justin A

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 9,010

Quote:

I ask the good atheist in this forum. Where is your faith? In the single universe model or the multi-universe model.

Neither.

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11-15-2007 , 07:26 PM

#36

bunny

will feast on your soul

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 11,219

Quote:

I dont think that's where the objection to God comes in. I dont think many athiests object to speculation - it's asserting the speculation as a known fact (and then proceeding to make various other deductions and resultant actions) that they object to.

I'm sure most atheists here would object to someone asserting that they know with certainty that the multi-universe model is correct - especially if they then went on to make a whole bunch of moral pronouncements based on that speculation.

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11-15-2007 , 09:29 PM

#37

MaxWeiss

banned

Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,173

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God is theorized because he can fit anything and is comforting.

Well again, a multiverse was derived from quantum data. When we derived the physical implications of that the results from the equations mean, multiple universes were one possibility. And it IS testable. Specific quantum effects can be theorized and tested for.

I don't know much about the theory, but I will happily say that if you are right in that it cannot be tested, then you are absolutely right in that it is faith-based to believe it and unscientific. As for "believing" in one or many universes, I have no specific belief. I believe only what can be inferred from the data.

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11-16-2007 , 03:21 AM

#38

Stu Pidasso

banned

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 12,373

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I don't know much about the theory, but I will happily say that if you are right in that it cannot be tested, then you are absolutely right in that it is faith-based to believe it and unscientific.

Something I have been thinking about for the past couple of months is that science will never be able to explain it all. There will always be some point when all we can do is speculate. After a while technology may allow us to move beyond speculation and into hard science. However, eventually we will get to a speculation point that the physical laws of our universe prevent us from passing. Science will never be able to give us a complete world veiw. To have that, we have to have faith in some ideal, some belief or some creator. Thats as true for the atheist as much as it is for the theist.

Stu

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11-16-2007 , 04:17 AM

#39

Sephus

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,668

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Science will never be able to give us a complete world veiw. To have that, we have to have faith in some ideal, some belief or some creator.

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11-16-2007 , 06:59 AM

#40

Justin A

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 9,010

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I don't know much about the theory, but I will happily say that if you are right in that it cannot be tested, then you are absolutely right in that it is faith-based to believe it and unscientific.

How you go from science not having all the answers to needing to believe in a creator is beyond me. If it helps you sleep better, by all means make guesses about stuff we can't observe. Also, LOL at saying an imaginary being that you have faith in gives you a complete world view.

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11-16-2007 , 08:23 AM

#41

MidGe

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,912

Stu,

Quote:

Something I have been thinking about for the past couple of months is that science will never be able to explain it all. There will always be some point when all we can do is speculate.

Don't worry about science not be able to explain it all, religion will never explain any!

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11-16-2007 , 10:37 AM

#42

dragonystic

banned

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,207

Quote:

Stu,

Quote:

Something I have been thinking about for the past couple of months is that science will never be able to explain it all. There will always be some point when all we can do is speculate.

Don't worry about science not be able to explain it all, religion will never explain any!

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