Luckyme,

I see what you're saying but I think you're missing out on what he's saying. I don't think that everyone will necessarily be happy with an unplanned child, but for many people this is certainly the case.

I can only speak for myself, but I am nearly 100% certain that if I had an unplanned child nine months from now that I would love that child with all my heart, and if given the chance I would not go back and change the events that led to the unplanned child. Despite this I am still choosing not to try to have a baby tonight. If you don't think that's interesting so be it, but don't pretend Stu has some ulterior motive for bringing up the subject.

What conclusion is he attempting to draw?

I don't think it's possible for me to have a child that I wouldn't love. I think there are many other people who feel the same way. These are the people Stu is talking about. I mean I guess you can call it a lottery but I don't know of any lotteries where you're pretty sure you'll win.

Ok fine. Restrict the discussion to people who will love any child they have.

And this is basically the point of the thread. Most people are not willing to admit that they might have been better off with different children.

So the "Abortionists should be punished like murderers" thread that he started the day after this one was just a coincidence?

Unfortunately they don't have an emoticon on here to show me sticking my foot in my mouth.

I concede the point about the ulterior motives. I still think the topic is interesting and worth discussing however.

That was a natural extension of the "why do we punish murderers" thread, this thread doesn't have anything to do with it. Although I think there might be a connection between this "selfish gene" and the birthcontrol paradox.

To be completely honest, I don't find birth control to be morally objectionable. My religion teaches it is, but I haven't come accross a compelling secular arguement. This is just something I think about when I mull over the idea of having myself snipped(which I am presently engaged in doing).

Because deep down most people know they are results-oriented, lying, cognitive dissonance-bots?

Thats a pretty good summation of the human condition.

Because abortion is murder...right?

Chez inspired it by claiming the selfish gene explained why we want to punish murderers even after all the other reasons are removed. He may be right, maybe the selfish gene concept is why I am against both murder and abortion. I just don't think he(and others) are being consistent.

Maybe, but in the same way that executing murderers is probably fit, some level of abortion is probably fit too.

Eugenics?

I suppose. But if you've ever read a post of mine in politics you'll know how much I would support actual eugenics.

yeah i know, i should have put some sort of smiley there.

Yes,

That's it.

I use birth control. everyone should future people aren't people.