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Ethic issue with medical marijuana (news story) Ethic issue with medical marijuana (news story)

05-14-2011 , 11:02 AM
here's a more direct link from the university

http://www.dca.med.ualberta.ca/Home/...-15_Update.cfm
Ethic issue with medical marijuana (news story) Quote
05-14-2011 , 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by .TIA
but him getting booze isn't.

i have not seen a single convincing argument for why cigarettes/alcohol are ok and weed isn't.
sorry to derail, i'm high and slightly tipsy
The only issue I have with legalizing marijuana is how do you police in situations in which you prohibit people from using it. For instance we prohibit for very good reasons me thinks, people driving cars under the influence of alcohol. If a cop suspects a person is driving under the influence of alcohol they can administer a breathalyzer test. However is someone is driving half baked and the cop suspects it, how can the cop confirm his suspicion?
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05-14-2011 , 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso
The only issue I have with legalizing marijuana is how do you police in situations in which you prohibit people from using it. For instance we prohibit for very good reasons me thinks, people driving cars under the influence of alcohol. If a cop suspects a person is driving under the influence of alcohol they can administer a breathalyzer test. However is someone is driving half baked and the cop suspects it, how can the cop confirm his suspicion?
as far as i know there is currently blood analysis when there is serious indication of drug use, but they are busy with new saliva tests that search for the most popular drugs. police are expected to start using these from 2012 and on. What they do is check for signs like erratic behavior and physical signs like dilated pupils, excessive sweating, grinding your teeth etc. all standard drug related things. if they have serious suspicion they can administer these saliva tests, if that test is positive they will be taken in for a confirmation blood examination. This is happening in the netherlands and belgium, as far as i understand it.
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05-14-2011 , 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso
However is someone is driving half baked and the cop suspects it, how can the cop confirm his suspicion?
I think the same question would apply to many currently restricted drugs, such as vicodin, or for illegal drugs, like heroin. Yet the world goes on.
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05-14-2011 , 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso
The only issue I have with legalizing marijuana is how do you police in situations in which you prohibit people from using it. For instance we prohibit for very good reasons me thinks, people driving cars under the influence of alcohol. If a cop suspects a person is driving under the influence of alcohol they can administer a breathalyzer test. However is someone is driving half baked and the cop suspects it, how can the cop confirm his suspicion?
How does this have anything to do with legalizing marijuana?
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05-14-2011 , 09:08 PM
I must say, living in California where it's pretty much legal, I don't see anything negative about it at all. It's pretty much like buying cigarettes here because the med marijuana card is so easy to obtain and it's been that way for some time now. It's so harmless in comparison to alcohol and tobacco, it's such a joke. I've never witnessed any hostile situations after someone has visited the local marijuana shop here. The only reason it is illegal is that it is tied into 'drug war' money that the gov't money produces and it's all beaurocratic. I know you didn't want to go off on politcal tangent here , but when it comes to mj, it's very much prohibited due to political agendas.
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05-14-2011 , 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madnak
How does this have anything to do with legalizing marijuana?
Nothing if you are going to make it 100% legal as in anyone can smoke it anytime anywhere. However if you are going to make it partially legal, as in you can smoke it in certain places and as long as you don't engange in certain activities then you still need to police it.

I imagine marijuana will never be 100% legal as I don't know too many people who want their airline piliots stoned on approach. In fact I will go on record right now saying I do not support blunts in the cockpit. If a piliot is found in said cockpit with one, then they should be prosecuted and thrown in jail.

Making drugs "legal" doesn't really end the war on drugs. It just eliminates some of the battles.

Last edited by Stu Pidasso; 05-14-2011 at 09:50 PM.
Ethic issue with medical marijuana (news story) Quote
05-14-2011 , 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso
Nothing if you are going to make it 100% legal as in anyone can smoke it anytime anywhere. However if you are going to make it partially legal, as in you can smoke it in certain places and as long as you don't engange in certain activities then you still need to police it.
If marijuana is illegal, then it's illegal to smoke marijuana and drive.

If marijuana is legalized, then it's illegal to smoke marijuana and drive.

There is no difference at all. Smoking and driving has the same legal status regardless of whether cannabis is legalized or is illegal.
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05-15-2011 , 12:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso
The only issue I have with legalizing marijuana is how do you police in situations in which you prohibit people from using it. For instance we prohibit for very good reasons me thinks, people driving cars under the influence of alcohol. If a cop suspects a person is driving under the influence of alcohol they can administer a breathalyzer test. However is someone is driving half baked and the cop suspects it, how can the cop confirm his suspicion?
How do you police people who drive tired, people who talk on their cell phones while driving, people who eat while driving, or people who are terrible drivers to begin with? Should food be illegal? Cell phones? All of these things can actually be demonstrated to significantly impair driving ability, while being high on marijuana has not been conclusively shown to actually impair driving ability.

I have an ethical issue with using stolen monies to hire bands of thugs to prowl the roads and barge into houses with the goal of harassing and kidnapping people minding their own damn business.
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05-15-2011 , 12:55 AM
Has no one here heard of Phoenix Tears? Hash oil is shown to cure some forms of cancer. No formal testing has been done for obvious reasons. I personally know 2 people that were terminal and are now alive and well today because of this oil. Link here:

http://youtu.be/pjhT9282-Tw

http://phoenixtears.ca/articles/

It is a shame that this has been repressed for quite some time. Honestly what would it hurt, other than drug companies, to just do some real testing. I have started my grandpa on the oil for his melanoma we will see if it works for him as well.

I truly believe the cures for all illnesses exist in plants and we really need to research before so many of them are extinct and it is too late.
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05-15-2011 , 02:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madnak
I don't think that's true of MJ. If it could be conclusively demonstrated that legalizing cannabis (or ending the war on drugs in general) would significantly and categorically benefit society, I think the majority of the opponents would change their tune.
Amsterdam seems to be doing alright though
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05-15-2011 , 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madnak
I don't think that's true of MJ. If it could be conclusively demonstrated that legalizing cannabis (or ending the war on drugs in general) would significantly and categorically benefit society, I think the majority of the opponents would change their tune. Similarly, if the reverse were conclusively demonstrated, I think majority of those pressing to legalize would hush.

The standard of evidence required in either case would be unreasonably high, but it's still possible in theory.

I also think that if people were, in general, intimately familiar with all the relevant research, a significant proportion of them would support legalization. That opinion may extend from my own biases, but in my experience those strongly opposed to marijuana are deeply ill-informed about the subject.

I think it's very much a matter of the facts.
But people who want marijuana to be legal have very different opinions on what the benefit to society would be compared to someone who wants to keep it legal. I completely agree those who are strongly opposed to legalization are deeply ill-informed, but they don't see it that way. They think you are the ill-informed one.

A few charts and graphs with statistics showing them the benefits of legalizing marijuana isn't going to do anything to change their mind.
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05-15-2011 , 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headie1
Has no one here heard of Phoenix Tears? Hash oil is shown to cure some forms of cancer. No formal testing has been done for obvious reasons. I personally know 2 people that were terminal and are now alive and well today because of this oil. Link here:

http://youtu.be/pjhT9282-Tw

http://phoenixtears.ca/articles/

It is a shame that this has been repressed for quite some time. Honestly what would it hurt, other than drug companies, to just do some real testing. I have started my grandpa on the oil for his melanoma we will see if it works for him as well.

I truly believe the cures for all illnesses exist in plants and we really need to research before so many of them are extinct and it is too late.
Why would you believe a video that claims that hash oil can be used to cure "practically any disease"?

Seriously, why?
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05-15-2011 , 03:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loK2thabrain
But people who want marijuana to be legal have very different opinions on what the benefit to society would be compared to someone who wants to keep it legal. I completely agree those who are strongly opposed to legalization are deeply ill-informed, but they don't see it that way. They think you are the ill-informed one.

A few charts and graphs with statistics showing them the benefits of legalizing marijuana isn't going to do anything to change their mind.
Maybe not, but I think it could in theory. Well, a critical mass of them at least. I don't think the problem is intractable in practice. Public perceptions can change radically, especially when those perceptions are based largely on misinformation in the first place.
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05-15-2011 , 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumpzilla
Plenty of people do that. If what you mean is that the political debate is not centered around that, I'd agree. But that's for a good reason - the medical angle is one where you're far more likely to make inroads. Incremental progress is generally what politics can offer.
Yeah I guess what annoys me is how little weight peoples enjoyment/quality of life carries in politics.
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05-15-2011 , 08:23 AM
eh so annoying when people say seemingly crazy things about weed curing cancer. Devaules the much more powerful social, economical and moral reasons.
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05-15-2011 , 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7000
eh so annoying when people say seemingly crazy things about weed curing cancer. Devaules the much more powerful social, economical and moral reasons.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0401181217.htm
Quote:
ScienceDaily (Apr. 9, 2009) — Guillermo Velasco and colleagues, at Complutense University, Spain, have provided evidence that suggests that cannabinoids such as the main active component of marijuana (THC) have anticancer effects on human brain cancer cells.

In the study, THC was found to induce the death of various human brain cancer cell lines and primary cultured human brain cancer cells by a process known as autophagy.
u mad bro?
Ethic issue with medical marijuana (news story) Quote
05-15-2011 , 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7000
eh so annoying when people say seemingly crazy things about weed curing cancer. Devaules the much more powerful social, economical and moral reasons.
What if those things aren't crazy?
Ethic issue with medical marijuana (news story) Quote
05-15-2011 , 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso
Nothing if you are going to make it 100% legal as in anyone can smoke it anytime anywhere. However if you are going to make it partially legal, as in you can smoke it in certain places and as long as you don't engange in certain activities then you still need to police it.

I imagine marijuana will never be 100% legal as I don't know too many people who want their airline piliots stoned on approach. In fact I will go on record right now saying I do not support blunts in the cockpit. If a piliot is found in said cockpit with one, then they should be prosecuted and thrown in jail.

Making drugs "legal" doesn't really end the war on drugs. It just eliminates some of the battles.
Disagree.

Why does it have to be the government who punishes the pilot?

I think there is nothing unethical about making choices about one's own vessel and doing with it as whatever one will provided it brings no harm to anyone.

Let's take your example of flying stoned in the cockpit.

A pilot we can gather has a good deal of wisdom about him or her. Therefore from that we can deduce that they would be unlikely to be an inexperienced stoner and unlikely therefore to be liable to disorientation. In other words, if you're a pilot, you know that flying has a risk and you have a responsibility as part of your duties to take off, fly and land an aeroplane. Therefore you are unlikely to one day decide to start smoking weed without ever having done so before, unaware of the effects it could have upon your body and mind - and then go and fly an aeroplane and potentially risking the lives of both you and your passengers. You are not going to take that risk. And besides, any human being who is compelled to try smoking weed has experience of the effects through their peers or from what they have read or heard so they know what they are in for when they do it. So you'll be a frequent user with experience if you are a pilot.

Nevertheless, should that dreadful event arise where the pilot does go into work stoned and takes off and crashes and his passengers die and the pilot somehow survives unharmed, he should be subject to the will of the market IMO.

To explain: The reporting of the incident by the free press will bring such shame upon him that his life from that point on may be ruined, he may be known forever in his given name as a man so brutally irresponsible and shamelessly negligent in his duties, such that he may never garner gainful employment again and his life will be ruined. He will be fired, named, shamed, discredited forever. To have to struggle through that is surely a lot worse than deprivation of his right to liberty?

Further the airline company would be shamed too. They too would suffer from boycotting. Then the market adjusts. Airlines say "OK weed is legal but you as an employee will be screened for it daily" or something similar. Consumers take their money elsewhere and then nobody has to go through that again. And businesses will do things like that because they suffer so greatly from bad press.
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05-16-2011 , 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madnak
I don't think that's true of MJ. If it could be conclusively demonstrated that legalizing cannabis (or ending the war on drugs in general) would significantly and categorically benefit society, I think the majority of the opponents would change their tune. Similarly, if the reverse were conclusively demonstrated, I think majority of those pressing to legalize would hush.
So comparing the effects of 1920s alcohol prohibition -- a far more physically dangerous, socially dangerous, and lethal drug than marijuana -- to the effects of modern marijuana prohibition -- this somehow doesn't qualify as conclusive demonstration of unnecessary social harm directly resulting from terrible government policy/approach?

I mean, just imagine if weed could be grown/sold legally in industrial quantities.



The problem I have is the assumption that something like marijuana (or most psychedelics) is harmful at all, or in need of criminalization or extreme control. Show me some 'conclusive' evidence that weed is bad. Something that's not just propaganda.

Also, FWIW, alcohol is the ultimate gateway drug.
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05-16-2011 , 01:54 AM
No, a conclusive demonstration would take much more than that.
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05-16-2011 , 06:17 AM
The question of whether a drug should be legal should be irrespective of the drug itself. Prohibition is more destructive than any substance could ever be.
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05-16-2011 , 06:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKSpartan
The question of whether a drug should be legal should be irrespective of the drug itself. Prohibition is more destructive than any substance could ever be.
+1

it's like ron paul said. if heroin was legalised tomorrow would everyone go out and get high on it? no! that ship is nasty.
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05-16-2011 , 12:29 PM
Re: the OP, there's no way to say with any certainty that the hash oil did it, and more likely than not, it didn't. My big gripe with medical MJ is that it is a thinly veiled attempt at legalizing recreational use, where the veil is the medical community. I recently caw a CNBC special where they followed a doc who was prescribing medical MJ and he staunchly defended his prescribing practices (i.e. "only for people who really need it"), and then he is shown writing a script for some kid in a disc golf shirt, with uncut hair, baggy cargo shorts, and sandals who has a knee that has been "bugging him a bit recently". You can call me guilty of profiling, but FFS that kid just wants to load his bong and play halo with his buddies. That's not to say I'm against legalizing for recreational use, but doing so via medicine really marginalizes the role of medicine in society.

Re: the drug war in it's totality, I am fully of the opinion that prohibition relegates a medical problem to the legal sphere. It's like telling someone who suffers from OCD that it is now illegal to wash your hands. The illegal drug market is consumer driven, and the consumers suffer from a compulsive drive to ingest drugs. If you legalize, regulate, and treat, you take the consumers out of the market and the suppliers (who are the only real criminals involved) are choked out.

Note: I don't think marijuana falls under my second point here. I'm of the opinion that it can be used responsibly, and really should just be legalized for recreational use.
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05-16-2011 , 01:28 PM
This thread is rapidly heading into territory more appropriate for the politics forum than this one.
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