this bit is especially good

-said 98% of all NVG posters

lol

I said I WOULD spread it around.

Before you came here, various Catholics admitted that the public evidence is such that it is reasonable to not believe in the Christian God. To believe you needed something else. Either a personal expeience or "faith". And some people had neither. But this is probematic if you think that God is both just, and will never, ever, save even the most pious religious person who doesn't think Jesus was resurrected. To get out of this bind, Catholics and some Protestants say that some non Christians will occasionally be saved. Fundamentalist types get out of the bind by saying that even the public evidence is strong enough such that a purely rational examination should lead you to Christ. THAT is what most brilliant scientists disagree with. Including some who are religious.

Here is something you may not know about the typical Jew. At least the ones I grew up with. When asked about Christianity they would say (even if it was not the official rabbinical stance) that "it was a lovely religion. Olden day Jews had gotten a little out of line so God sent Jesus, like he sent Abraham, Moses and Solomon, to whip people back into shape. But Jesus made such an impression that some people mistakingly thought he was even more than that. But this mistake is no big deal. Even if it means that his followers eat pork and don't get circumsized. Jesus was a great teacher and if some people need to believe he was divine to make it easier to follow his teachings that's actually a good thing. We know their beliefs are a bit silly and maybe even a little bit annoying to God but not very much. Especially if it will make it more likely that they will obey the Golden Rule. And if they usually do obey it they will certainly go to heaven in spite of their small error."

Now if it turns out that it was the Christians who are right, the question becomes how angry God and Jesus would be toward people who thought the above. Catholics seem to think that if they were kindly and charitable as well, God will forgive their errors just like they thought God would forgive Christian's errors. Catholics also seem to think that there are words in the New Testament that verify what they think. You say that even though this mercy bestowed on deceased kindly Jews might be nice from a human perspective, it flatly contradicts the bible regardless of what Catholics say. My question is "Are you absolutely sure"?

I don't think so. I don't think people can get their beliefs from a book.

i will start by answering this first. no. i have never claimed to be 100% right. luckily it is not up to me to decide on who gets into heaven or not. i also would like to add that you do not seem to read my other posts. i have said in a couple of your threads that there is scripture that implies that jews will get judged by the law of which they hold. i have not quite come to a firm belief on what this means yet. Now this does not mean that you can do good to out way the bad. the bible is clear on that. i will speak more on this at a later time. i will say though that if one is so inclined they can read the bible and find that a lot of what "christians" have claimed to be true holds very little water in the bible.

well i would say that there are many brilliant scientists that would disagree with your statement of lack of evidence. but that is not really the point. I would agree that there are two types of people as far as what is needed to believe. i feel that i am in the middle, but lean more toward the faith side. i believe that there is evidence out there, but evidence is really different for different people

i think that first you have to realize that there are two different types of people on the non-faith side(mostly of the science type guy) the first is the guy that says he needs proof because he really does not want to believe, and then there is the guy that would like to believe but cannot make the leap of faith with out X amount of what he considers evidence.

Now if you fall into the second category, then i think that you need to ask yourself a few questions of which i have actually asked you a couple times before. mainly, what are you doing to look for such evidence?

have you attempted to speak with someone that is more on your intellectual plain that is a christian?

have you ever tried to read any books that some of these people have wrote?

i have told you before that i am more than willing to do research into what would be the best type material for you to look into, but i heard nothing back.

This is a two way street in life. The bible states that there is more than enough evidence for everyone, so i have to believe that there is something out there that will convince you if you are open to it.

but if you sit around and just complain that there is not enough evidence but do not look for it, then it is your own fault. it is a self fulfilling prophecy. i can assure you that you will never find anything without looking for it. let me give you a hint, you will not find it in any of the secular science mags.

"i have said in a couple of your threads that there is scripture that implies that jews will get judged by the law"

Explain to him where he is wrong, Not Ready or Brad1970. Why is there so much confusion about this.

"have you attempted to speak with someone that is more on your intellectual plain that is a christian?

have you ever tried to read any books that some of these people have wrote?

i have told you before that i am more than willing to do research into what would be the best type material for you to look into, but i heard nothing back.

This is a two way street in life. The bible states that there is more than enough evidence for everyone, so i have to believe that there is something out there that will convince you if you are open to it."

The bible states that there is more than enough evidence out there because it was written by men during years when that statement was reasonable.

I say again that the great majority of scientists who are religious would not claim that objective evidence alone is enough to convince somepone who does not have faith or a personal religious experience. Thus very few are fundamentalists.

As regards to reading or speaking to educated theists I have to some extent done that as far as the Old Testament is concerned. And I am 99.99% sure the Old Testament is nonsense. So why bother learning about another religion that assumes it is true?

"i have not quite come to a firm belief on what this means yet."

just wanted to make sure that this part of my quote gets in there.