As usual Russell inverts the issue and assumes the falsity of what he calls a myth. I suppose listening to this guy who found himself within lifelong despair secondary to his particular intellectual stance is only for the very hardy or the very obtuse.

Haven't read little Bertie in some time but the above quote certainly is Russell incarnate, the whining atheist. I personally preferred his ex buddy Alfred North Whitehead who was legions away from this whimpering WAH!!theist.

Its not what you happen to want that moment.

It is just what you happen to want.

No he doesn't. Its comptemptible to believe a comfortable myth even if it happens to be true.

Always amusing to see now much theists hate Russell, Dawkins should be flattered.

its not just that time he goes to supermarket. Left to his "superficial self interest" he will always buy skittles, or snickers or whatever. What you "just happen to want" is not necessarily in your ultimate self interest. It is in your "ultimate self interest" to belong to society, so that which provides more suffering to society than gain is immoral, regardless of an individuals "superficial self interest"

? you keep saying it but if I don't want to belong to socierty then its not in my self-interest to belong to society.

What you sau sounds much the same as 'crime doesn't pay' which is also untrue.

I don't hate Russell, he did what he did well enough by himself. Just for your information I didn't say "I'm a theist and therefore must hate Russell!!". Categorizing another as atheist/theist is simply a shallow approach to knowledge and understanding in general.

From my readings of Russell he gives forth a dark despair that is inescapable in its essence. You can debate this from the atheist/theist viewpoint but that is really not the issue. The issue in our consideration is: can you perceive the despair that runs throughout his works? I did but also became somewhat impatient with him in his "sneering" of others not of the fold.

"In 1891, Whitehead married Evelyn Wade, an Irish woman reared in France; they had a daughter and two sons. One son died in action while serving in the Royal Flying Corps during World War I. Meanwhile, Russell spent much of 1918 in prison because of his pacifist activities. Although Whitehead visited his co-author in prison, he did not take his pacifism seriously, while Russell sneered at Whitehead's later speculative Platonism and panpsychism. After the war, Russell and Whitehead seldom interacted, and Whitehead contributed nothing to the 1925 second edition of Principia Mathematica."


The connection between Russell and Dawkins that you made certainly rings a bell, but is not necessarily edifying.

Not wanting to belong to society may be true but it is still in your ultimate self interest to belong to society. A quick example would be the numerous hippy colonies of the 60's, they all failed without exception because it was ultimately in there self interest to rejoin society.

crime often doesn't pay.

As far as crime doesn't pay - the reason crime can pay in certain circumstances is a institutional structure of society problem not a moral question. It is still immoral to break the law unless the law itself is immoral.

why?

I'm not even sure what you mean by immoral.

What I mean by moral/ immoral -

Morality as a whole is a collection of memes evolved over time and floating out there in the zeitgeist. An example would be the meme that drunk driving is immoral. Not all memes that claim something immoral is necessarily immoral or vice-versa, over time a meme may become extinct because of this or become marginalized (the morality of slavery for example).

For a more concrete definition of morality I happen to subscribe to the meme that morality/immorality is a relationship between happiness and suffering.

However where you and I differ (I believe) is that I also subscribe to the meme that an individual is a part of all of human kind. A meme that itself has evolved, as I mentioned earlier with the idea of cosmopolis and the inherent right of man, etc.

These two memes combined brings me to my argument that if the personal self interest of an individual must be balanced against the suffering of not just himself but the rest of society. If that relation is >1 then moral if <1 immoral.


Now not all would subscribw to these two memes, PETA people for example would include animals into society, thus making an argument that meat eating is immoral.

but not everyone has to share that meme. what about someone who doesn't?

Thats fine you don't have to buy into it. Just like you don't have to buy into the idea that slavery is wrong, or drunk driving is wrong, or that helping old ladies across the street is right, etc, etc.

This goes back to the complaint I made against NR, the individual is not the center of the Universe. Whether you subscribe or not has nothing to do with whether or not the act is or is not immoral.

However and I am wary of heading down this rabbit hole. Are entire society functions on the idea that we will follow custom, which of course is nothing but an adoption of certain memes. So if you happen not to subscribe to a certain meme that society does you will pay a cost. Of course again that does not mean society is right and you are wrong, but your best ocurse of action would be to create or propogate your own meme as to why you disagree. (I am starting to delve into a subject that would need its own thread so I'll stop here. If you want me to make a new thread on the subject maybe we can, or if you disagree to such a degree that yuo find it non-interesting we can leave at that as well)

Always interested in memes and I ca't see how we are going to end up disagreeing about anything important.

Obviously there is a cost to not having memes that fit well with societal norms but it doesn't follow that conforming with those norms is always the best way to go - it's a massive claim to make and sounds highly unlikely.

Richard Dawkins to the rescue.

Well I started to start a "Lets talk about memes" thread but then I reminded myself that I am heading out of town to go visit my family. I don't wan't miss out on all the fun, so I am not going to start one and hope no one else does either

NR I came across an interesting article by Science Daily about a study on altruism.

Here it is: Thinking About God Leads To Generosity, Study Suggests

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0829102048.htm

Russell was a misanthrope, a dark one. Many may think this an unfair or unwarranted characterization but I think it has sound backing. So the element of despair is certainly detectable; how much that detracts from the effectiveness and virtue of his writings is for each individual to decide. For the most part I let it slide, but then I am a laughing misanthrope so my view may seem warped.

Russell was also an aristocrat in both a good, and if you wish to interpreted it that way, a bad sense. So yes, he sneered. His bloodline required it. Perhaps some of the people he sneered at deserved it, perhaps some did not, but his personal life is not on trial in this thread.

As for the quote it fits will enough to make an important point.

His life, for all its waywardness, had a certain consistency, reminiscent of that of the aristocratic rebels of the early nineteenth century. –Bertrand Russell’s own obituary


-Zeno

Do you really claim that the idea that drunk driving is immoral evolved over time, that there was a time when people thought drunk driving was ok?

Just to be fair so you won't think I'm playing gotcha, I wikied this and found the first DD law was 1910 in New York, followed quickly by California, then many other states.

When my father was young, cops didn't bother you if you were drunk and driving. If you weren't capable of driving, then they'd intervene. But other than that, they didn't bother you. Getting a DUI was unheard of.

My opinion is that mankind would be vastly improved if the word "meme" was permanently banned from usage on pain of death.

The truth hurts. banning it may stop your pain but its very childish.

Its relatively recent in the UK. Certainly the current day hysteria is a meme gone wild.

Giving Russell love is a good thing and I appreciate your perspective. Thank you.