if your closer is the best in your bullpen, wouldn't he have more utility when you get in a jam like up by 2 in the 6th with runners on first and second and 1 out? if he is your best pitcher available, he should be used when you most need an out.

Yea the SABR guys believe the same thing. At the end of the day it makes too much sense so probably won't happen for another 50 years.

The way closers are used in baseball is one of the most bizarre, inefficient things in all of sports. The reason usually given is that the mgr is trying to protect his job.

another question, why don't basketball teams try to intentionally miss free throws to get the rebound at the end of games when the clock is low and they are behind? is there a rule that the ref can cancel the shot if he suspects you are trying to miss it on purpose (like you hold it with one hand and throw it at the rim like a football)? i think i have seen this attempted in college games but i could be delusional.

It has something to do with the "save" stat I think, but I don't know when that stat started being considered important... Sadly I think that "closers" were used more efficiently 30-40 years ago then they are today.

The concept of "bullpen ace" vs. "closer" is one of the big things SABRs love to complain about.

If you don't hit the rim, it's a violation and the other team gets the ball out of bounds. It's harder to miss and hit the rim than it seems.

The misuse of closers is the type of thing that managers do to minimize criticism from results-oriented fans. Punting on 4th and short, not fouling late in the game when up by 3 and in the penalty in basketball, and sacrificing late in the game when doing by one in baseball are all examples of this imo. If the coach makes an unconventional yet +EV decision and it doesn't work, then the fans get mad because they're a bunch of results oriented sheepboobs.

in the case they mention where the closer would go in in the biggest spot of the game, the closer would have to be warmed up at all times which would not be possible

This is pretty much exactly right. If a manager uses Jim Journeyman in the 6th inning with a 1 run lead and bases loaded with 0 out, and he ends up giving up the lead, then yea, it sucks, but everyone just figures that's the way it goes.

But if Carl Closer comes in in that same situation and somehow ends up getting out of it with the lead intact, but then Jim Journeyman happens to blow the save in the 9th, they'll want the manager's head on a platter for 'wasting' their closer in the 6th.

thanks, i didn't know this. i figured there had to be some sort of rule in place though. it seems like the best strategy would be to just chest pass it as hard as possible at the front of the rim?

Try it sometime. It's harder than it seems it should be.

i know you have to hit the rim. i actually think the back of the rim is easier to hit than the front. perhaps shooting with a very high arch?

Agreed.

If you have an ace reliever capable of pitching no more than one inning in general, it makes little sense to bring him in before the 9th. This is actually one area where a lot of so-called sabermetricians get it wrong, because they forget about the option value of not using a closer immediately, regardless of the situational leverage. The average 9th inning isn't of higher leverage than any other inning (if you include the ones that aren't played out) but you do have the best information. The only other situation where you'd consider putting your closer in is a close game in the 8th with runners on, but match-up considerations may be more important in that situation. In fact, if you think about it, this is one of the more correctly managed aspects of baseball in-game strategy.

The flip side of this is that in a single game playoff/game-7 situations, you should bring your best pitchers first. For most teams, the ideal order may be something like closer, setup-man, would-be starter, rest of bp/all other starters. Of course there are overwhelming psychological/physical considerations that counter the basic math.

this thread is ******ed

the reason the closer doesnt come into a jam in the 6th is because he would've had to have started warming up long before there was a jam in the 6th

the red sox get it right. if it's prob gonna be a save situation, papelbon starts warming in the 8th and he comes in if it gets dicey and if not he comes in for the 9th

Well no, it's not like 1 second you're in the clear and the next second you're in a jam.... say you're up 5 going into the 6th. Your pitcher gives up a hit, and then a walk, and then he serves up a 3-run homer. Then he gives up a couple more hits/walks, and now you're only up 1 with runners on. You could easily have started warming up your closer after the homer, when things started to look like they might get dicey, and then stuck him out there when you really need to hold onto the lead.

It really seems like there is some sort of a mental aspect to it, plenty of dominant set-up men have tried and failed to close games down on a regular basis, I guess you have to be able to forget about the pressure involved and just get the job done, it sounds funny but baseball players are a strange bunch, we're talking about people that don't change socks/underwear during winning/hitting streaks, and bang fat chicks during slumps.

Edit:

It also seems like closers just have really fragile ego's in general, plenty of seemingly dominant closers just completely lose it out of nowhere or after some collasal meltdown in a huge game.

you see it occasionally. I'd imagine the 1pt FT has a good deal higher expectancy than banking on a miss, rebound, and score. The parlay is just so small that it's only done in desperation. It also takes additional time off the clock (pretty sure the clock starts once someone touches it).

You also see the vice versa where a team is up by 4 or more with only a couple seconds left and they're on the line. They'll intentionally brick it so that time runs out.

the first 3 runs that score are irrelevant u basically want ur closer warming to start the 6th inning with a 2 run lead

i think ur kind of missing the whole point of closers

if closers could pitch every day they would pitch the first inning of every game. they cant so managers need to limit how much they throw.

if the score is 5-3 in the 6th inning, the 6th inning will be just as important as the 9th on average. but sometimes one team will score 11 runs in the 8th and neither the 6th or the 9th will have been important. in these cases, you really don't want to have used your closer. so managers wait as late as they can to make sure the closer's inning will be important.

Well to be fair, if you're on the line up by 4+ with only a couple seconds left, it doesn't much matter what happens with the free throw

Well sure, if a team scores 11 the next inning, then yea, it usually doesn't much matter what happens in any other inning. But if neither team scores the rest of the game (which is a lot more likely), then you'll be very happy you used up your bullpen ace when you really needed an out.

Maybe I am missing the point of a closer, but for me, a closer (or bullpen ace), should generally be used when you're in a late-game situation where you desperately need the inning to end ASAP. If there's no such situation during the game, then sure, throw him out there for the 9th to pick up a save. But you shouldn't be saving closers just so that they might earn a save later.

if neither team scores then the 6th is just as important as the 9th so it doesnt matter

u want ur closer warming up in the 6th inning of a 2 run game just in case someone reaches base.

well closers cannot be warming up all game their arms are made of tendons and ****

No, I'd want a closer coming in specifically in late-game situations where a lead change is imminent, say a 1 or 2 run lead and they have 2 runners in scoring position with 0 outs.

Plus they won't be warming up the whole game. I'm not bringing in a closer in innings 1-5, heck, even the 6th might be a tad early depending on how good your offense is.

Yeah because it's so hard for the pitcher to slow things down a bit, managers to talk to players/umps on the field, etc., etc. to give him time to warm up. It's not like these things come out of nowhere, you'll have at least some idea a bad situation is coming up.

a closer's arm would not survive warming up the last 3 innings of every game either

thank you gehrig, tried to say what you said but in less words lol