He's doing a great job at turning everyone who's not an MJ-diehard onto the LeBron side.

That's the one thing he's done well.

Lebron was never rotting in Cleveland - he simply wasn't good enough to win with more scoring options than the 1st three-peat Bulls and better team defenses.

History shows that Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen but played 3rd option for the 2010 Cavs, while the team had better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls as well... And the Cavs had better defensive ranking in 2007 too, which was long before Lebron became an all-defensive player, so they always had tons of defensive help and more scoring options... Meanwhile, Mike Brown is a historic defensive coach.

Accordingly, Lebron needed to wait 1 more year because there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs in 2011 that Dirk grabbed, but the Cavs would've had the long-standing chemistry and reputed defense to easily destroy Dirk and Jason Terry.. The heat were missing these things (defense, chemistry) but the Cavs had them in spades.

Btw, organic winners like Giannis, Jokic, Curry or MJ had "normal" casts with one secondary producer like Klay, Middleton, Pippen or Murray - why can't Lebron win with these kinds of "normal" casts instead of putting multiple opposing franchise players on his team?




2009 MO WILLIAMS........... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48...,,.. #3 team defense
1990 PIPPEN....................... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48..... #19 team defense


SO IT'S STATISTICAL FACT that the Cavs had better help on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat Lebron to titles by winning the following year in 91', while Lebron kept losing as the favorite despite adding Jamsion/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite or forming a super-team.




Don't be ashamed for Lebron because Jordan always won with what lebron couldn't:

09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic'.............. 18 on 38%........ #3 team defense

89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs................. 15 on 40%...... #11 team defense
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat................. 16 on 39%........ #4 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers.............. 17 on 39%........ #9 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz'.................. 16 on 41%........ #9 team defense

96-98' Pippen entire playoffs.............. 18 on 41%....... #1, #4, #9 defenses

^^^ Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while Jordan did all the time and with worse team defenses than Lebron had

TLDR: Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with worse defenses than the 09' Cavs and less offensive help

Again, great shooters and offensive players allow GM's to fill out the team with cheap defenders, so guys like MJ and Curry give teams better defenses than bricklayers like Pippen, who require expensive offensive help.. Pippen needed guys like Kukoc, Kerr and Paxson, who couldn't play defense.
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History is on my side.

Lebron has a history of bad fits and inferior brand of ball compared to the teams he loses to (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Magic, Mavs)

Lebron's team was never considered the "smart" team, while the teams that beat him were considered the "smart" teams that "played the right way"... Never Lebron's teams.

There's a reason why the 09' Cavs won more games than Lebron's super-teams - it's because the 09' team had organic CHEMISTRY... Unfortunately, Lebron gave up on climbing the chemistry learning curve (organic) and opted for a talent-based approach, so every loss is blamed on needing more help.

Otoh, if MJ or Jokic loses, it's because they aren't goat and simply didn't develop a good enough team (chemistry-based winning), but when Lebron loses, it's because he didn't have enough help (talent-based winning).. Clearly, Lebron is the fraud amongst this group - the talent-based winner that never really learned how to win (chemistry, organic)..

Lebron never evolved out of AAU ball-dominance, so he never had a #1 offense in 21 years and routinely has inferior brand of ball to the top playoff opponents.. It's impossible for coaches to build a great brand of ball or ball movement (high assist teams) around his skillset.. 21 years confirms that frontcourt ball-dominance is the worst kind of ball-dominance - literally the worst brand of ball in history that produces lottery records on the championship level.
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lol no. quite the opposite. somehow when Lebron loses in the finals it's worse than Jordan losing in the first round.

as for brand of basketball-

He was 2-3 against the spurs in the finals. the first time he dragged absolute horseshit to the finals and he split the other 4 series. How is that bc of the brand of basketball to split when they were both similarly talented teams?



Warriors- 1-3 in the finals. If you want to call having the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league on GS the better brand I guess I can't argue. Keep in mind the first time they lost Love and Irving played a combined 1 game in the finals and Mathew Delladova was out there getting 40 mins a game. The third time they lost Lebron left and the Cavs won 20 games the next season. Warriors brand is definitely better than that. Swap Lebron for Curry the first 2 series and Lebron for Durant or Curry the last 2 and Lebron is probably 4-0 with his terrible brand of basketball.

Nuggets- is this a serious thing? Nobody thinks Lebron is in his prime now. It's impressive he's playing at this level at this age but trying to compare 39 year old Lebron with prime Jokic is silly. This may shock you- 39 year old MJ is also worse than prime Jokic.

Mavericks-totally inexcusable to lose this series. By far the biggest knock on Lebron in his career. Deserves every ounce of criticism he gets for losing to them.

i'm an idiot!

1-2.

point still stands though about the brand of ball.

Bron is faster and more explosive than Malone... Not sure how much that impacts the game because both were already overly powerful - if a player came along that was more powerful than Lebron like say Giannis, does Giannis' greater "Shaq" game make him better than prime Lebron?? I don't think so.. I think it's the other skill aspects that put Lebron over Giannis (shooting, handle, passing) while the power thing is like meh.

I'm Malone's case, he took jumpers on 61% of his shots in 98' (56% in 97')... Lebron has never taken jumpers for the majority of his shots and has never had an assisted rate above 50%, let alone the 78% that Malone had as the roll man and jumpshooter.. I don't think most people realize how much jumpshooting it takes to dominate as the role man against the packed paints of previous eras.. You couldn't get all the way to the rim like today's format and jumpshooting over defenses was often the best option.

So I guess the point is that Lebron > Malone but not by as much as people think because Lebron can't do what Malone did... People think lebron could score 36k as the roll man AND score 40k as a primary ball-handler, but it's really just the latter.. And again, whether Karl has a big man skillset or a PG skillset , It's still just Karl Malone (inferior to MJ.. or Kobe).

Btw, Malone was all-defense and MVP well into his 30's, while Lebron wasn't.

So is it fair to say that you were far more talented and skilled than Shaq's sons, but a complete moron who has zero basketball IQ and also a headcase with emotional issues, which led to scoring just 4 points in your college career despite your talent against far inferior competition?

That explains your thread contributions now, doesn't it?

Yup, it's common knowledge that athleticism doesn't matter in the game of basketball.

I don't think Shaq and Wilt were really penalized the same way because of their flashy personality and scoring dominance. It's more guys like Kareem, Russell, Duncan, D-Rob, Hakeem and KG that are underappreciated.

Sure, I think normal-sized athletes are probably more popular than 7-footers all things equal but casuals overrating 1-on-1 scoring is a far better explanatory variable as to why MJ is idolized and Kobe is often overrated. KG and Hakeem are roughly in the MJ-tier when you look at the record critically, but no casual thinks they are even remotely close. Whereas a lot of older casuals have Wilt and Shaq in the GOAT conversation. There's not a lot separating these 5 players from the standpoint of helping win basketball games, but 2 of them happened to be far more valuable on the defense end. KG even played more like a guard than any of the other all-time great 7-footers, but might be the most underrated of them all.

Doesn’t seem to matter much for doncic and jokic .

Many time I hear mj suck because he lost in the first round .
Cant wait to see what will they say if Lebron lost in the first round this year ….
With a team far more better then mj ever had the luxury to play with when he lost in the first round …..

Ps: AND the 80s Celtic were a better a team but let’s slide that fact for now ….

LeBron 25ppg for 20 straight years.


I don't even think MJ can be considered the GOAT scorer anymore.



Bron holds the all time scoring record + 25 ppg for 20 straight seasons.

It's just the way the game is being played now, teams that have an offensive player that can exploit high pick and rolls is how teams put up lots of points scoring wise. Players that are elite at this basically run the NBA offensively.


Can Wemby do enough on defensive end to offset this? I am not so sure.


Why doesn't Joker have any GOAT equity?

Are you seriously claiming that Nikola Jokic is not athletic?

Champ....

People aren't saying MJ sucks for losing in the first round. They are saying that losing in the finals is better than losing in the first round.

Ok killer?

He's 39 and in his 21st season. He's already blown away every players 21st season. Jordan didn't even make the playoffs even once after age 35.

MJ Stans: “Lebron got swept in the Finals!”

“But MJ got swept in the first round, how is that better than losing in the finals”

MJ Stans: “Imagine if LeBron loses to -350 Denver in year 21 in the first round!! I heard MJ sucks because he lost in the first round!”

Especially out of the triangle where the post man has three shotting options to pass to instead of two.

LeBron's teams were more successful form 2004-10 than Jordan's were pre-1991. He didn't need a second scoring option to win the East. He needed more scoring options but more importantly a strong defense around him and a great coach to win chips, like everyone has. The supporting cast argument is weak on both sides.

I'm an MJ fan. he's the GOAT, but I'm not gonna slander the 2nd greatest basketball player of all-time. That's stupid.

What u think was the odds of MJ vs the Celtics ?
I don’t get your point tho .
Isn’t true ?
The MJ stance never condemn MJ to lose in the first round .

Ah yes when you actually have champion in your conference it’s actually harder to get out huh ?
Who knew ….

So what lol .
Give MJ the team of lakers and he never miss the playoffs too ?
With total trash he was reaching the playoffs which it’s what was actually happening before his injury shrug .

But it’s ok .
U all keep praising LeBron his best in the league , allnba caliber blabla but hey let’s not treat him as such if he lose in the first round because his 39 ???
Lol .
U can’t have it both ways ….

and me I’m asking what ****ing difference it makes u lose in the first round or the final when u actually lose vs the freakn nba champion anyway ?
Just because you are lucky to not be in the same conference of the champs your better ?
Lol.

Yup .


If you see him as athletic as LeBron is ok , I don’t .

He’s 39 bro, 39 year old MJ and the Wizards had no playoff 1st rounds to worry about.

Leaving aside how silly it is to try and compare to anything about this series where Denver are red hot favs.

ah yes, MJ without even an all stars vs a super team like the celtic he surely was not a huge underdog either but at least he set an all time record in playoffs.

ah yes i remember the narrative now !
Well Mj lost in first round because he wasnt good enough during the regular season to fight weaker teams in the 1st round ....
Well Look at lebron lol.

here we go again -> Lebron his great makes allNBA .
-> Lebron lose well u know his old ...

thats cool so Lebron just never cant be wrong and failed, how great that is....

ps: again MJ with that lakers team there is no way he miss the playoffs either....