Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05
@ fallguy
You might be being a little unfair though. For example, in 2007 Lebron carried a team to the finals that had no business even making the playoffs really.
So you think it would've been okay if
4th-year Lebron missed the playoffs with a 2x all-star center, HOF coaching addition, and 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition?
People don't realize that Lebron waited 3 years to develop a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, while Jordan was thrown into the 8 vs 1 matchup immediately without a chance to develop his team by adding all-stars, all-defenders and HOF coaches like Lebron did by 2007.. So Lebron had a good team by 2007 that included a top defense, decorated veterans, great coaching, and 4 years of chemistry and roster development.. Accordingly, Lebron's developed, high seeds from Year 3-7 cannot be compared to Jordan's rookie low seeds from Years 1-3.. Lebron was simply lucky that his early teams barely missed the playoffs and the 8 vs 1 matchup in his first 2 years, otherwise he would have a "1-9" type record for his early playoff career.. The stats below show that Lebron's help in 2006 and 2007 was equal to Jordan's first three-peat teams (better defenses, more offensive options) but Lebron had a horrific fit with a player that was already much better than 1990 Pippen (Hughes), which is similar to bad fits with Ingram, Westbrook or Wade.
The reality is that Lebron did a good job of building an organic juggernaut by 2010 but he just gave up a year early.. A one-star, organic chip was up for grabs in 2011 and Dirk grabbed it - Lebron's Cavs would've had the long-standing chemistry and reputed defense that the Heat lacked to beat the Mavs.. So Lebron never learned the chemistry, teammate development and brand of ball needed to win organically - he gave up on these things and turned to a talent-based approach of hand-picking the preseason favorite from 2011-2016 and 2021.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05
@ fallguy
You might be being a little unfair though. For example, in 2007 Lebron carried a team to the finals that had no business even making the playoffs really.
Jordan would never have "the worst Finals team ever" with an all-star center teammate, HOF coach, and this acquisition:
05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.. 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.. No All-D
Jordan would 3-peat if he was gifted a player that was already superior to 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball - Hughes was coming into his own with 2 good seasons alongside an off-guard like Arenas, but he cratered and became a spot-up shooter alongside Lebron's ball-dominance.. Lebron has a massive track record of suboptimal fits with wings like Hughes, Ingram, Westbrook or Wade.
In addition to a better fit, the Cavs needed their star to NOT wet the bed with 22 on 36% against the Spurs.. 30 on 45% would've won that series since 3 of the 4 games were really close and the Cavs lost leads or ties in the 4th quarter of 3 different games.. Kobe swept the Spurs in 2008 by getting those numbers and developing superior chemistry with his teammates instead of playing Luka-ball and imposing spot-up roles like Lebron does.
Ultimately, Lebron avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup by waiting 3 years to develop a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, while rookie MJ was thrown into the 8 vs 1 matchup right away - he didn't get 3 years to develop his team with a 2x all-star center, HOF coach and Pippen-like acquisition.. Ironically, history shows that the first time Lebron had a low seed in the Playoffs (2021), he lost in the 1st Round and this was when he was a 4x champion (defending champion), not a rookie or sophomore like MJ.. Rookie MJ is knocked for losing in the 1st Round long before he was ever a goat candidate, while prime Lebron is given a pass for missing the playoffs with Ingram or missing the play-in with AD/Westbrook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05
In the game, aliens came down and we have to pick 5 basketball players to beat them in basketball ... Jordan has long been my so we pick him first obviously and let's figure out the other 4; .... it became Jordan is 1 and Lebron is 2 and let's figure the rest out.
Curry is in there now too; the different skill set and floor spacing has become too hard to ignore.
So, 2 players left to debate. And it needs to be a team that works.
Bird and Joker sound fine given the other 3 guys that you specified.
This team maximizes team offense via 4 guys that compliment the Bron-ball skillset the best - the 4 best off-ball players in history - i.e. these players achieved all-time production rates with the lowest time of possession.
But the problem is that the aliens are smart enough to travel galaxies so they won't want to play Bron-ball - they won't want the lower strategic ceiling of Bron-ball that risks getting blown away by superior brands like the Spurs, Nuggets, Warriors, Mavs or Magic.. They won't allow their hands to be tied and forced to run a ball-dominant, low-team assist brand that puts the ball in 1 player's hands.. 2 decades confirms that Bron-ball underachieves the on-paper talent by turning favored talent (preseason favorites) into underdog or loser from 2011-2016 and 2021 (the Allen-miracle aside).. Other tangible underachievement can be seen in 2019 and 2022 (lottery), or 2023 (swept with the better roster)..
Bron-ball hasn't had a perennial favorite in 20 years of playing with every cast imaginable - his brand simply isn't capable of having a perennial favorite and any favorite with the aforementioned cast of off-ball geniuses wouldn't be as dominant as playing a different brand altogether and someone in Lebron's place - frontcourt ball-dominators, aka big man ball-dominance - the worst kind of ball-dominance - cannot be on any all-time team or it will lack the highest strategic capacity/coaching.. And coaching is an important component of any great team - Bron-ball would shut down this capacity for great fits, chemistry and brand of ball (ball movement) before it even gets a chance to get started.
So Lebron isn't on the team.. No Bron-ball because 2 decades confirms that it isn't capable of a #1 offense, 70 wins or a perennial favorite with any lineup..
Bron-ball wouldn't go 82-0 with an infinite-peat like Warriors-ball, Spurs-ball, Bulls-ball, or Nuggets-ball would go - Bron-ball would make the team go 70-12 and choke-lose to whatever collusion the league responded with - see that's the issue - you can't have the ball-dominator choking or it's 2011 all over again, or the many lesser upset losses and failures of expectation, such as the 2006 World Championships, 2010 ECSF, 2014 Finals, or even 2017 Finals that many people thought the defending champs would prevail (nick wright).. Infact, everyone thought the Lebron was on his way to #5 this year at the start of the Nuggets series and everyone thinks the team THIS year is super-stacked.. Yet we all know that Bron-ball isn't capable of a sure-thing so no one expects that this year even though it would be expected with the other 4 guys on the alien's team.. Given Lebron's struggles, why not replace the 1 dud on the alien's team with another winner like the other 4? A fifth guy that has perennial favorites, #1 offenses and high team ceilings/Finals records like the other 4?.. Why would the aliens put 1 loser in there?
Btw, guys like Wilt or Kareem would be like Wemby except maybe a better handle because they're shorter - they were just as athletic as Wemby, or certainly Wilt was.. Guys simply weren't allowed to carry and travel back then, so the dribbling was inferior.. And if we're talking about players that fit any era or format, no one is better than Kobe.. And this idea that 2 guys who are expert jumpshooters and off-ball players - the top 2 shooting guards in history - couldn't fit together is absurd.. MJ and Kobe play off-the-ball but have elite playmaking ability too - so what's the problem?.. They would fit in a crappy system where one guy is a ball-dominator, or they would obviously fit in a ball movement system like the 90's Bulls or recent Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, 2009 Magic or 2011 Mavs.
Last edited by fallguy; 10-10-2023 at 12:43 AM.
