YugiohPro

SRS is a near garbage stat to be used in this conversation.

2018 Toronto Raptors had 2nd best SRS that year and got swept by a garbage LeBron Cleveland team.
2018 Raptors SRS >> SRS of any Eastern conference team Jordan faced in the 90s.
2018 Raptors SRS > 1987 Celtics SRS yet you would never argue the 2018 Raptors are "tougher".

All these "stats" and people still have no idea what is going on. It's embarrassing.


Candybar absolutely laid waste in this thread to the anti-LeBron crowd last few pages. Napalm level.

This isn’t the only forum twd does this on as well. He copies and pasted this trash on other sports related websites. It’s a pretty sad site to behold such negativity.

Facts are negativity now?

So how about these apples....



05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals

10' Jamison.... 16.7 PER.. 0.122 WS/48.... #7 team defense.. 2nd Round loss
90' Pippen....... 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals

09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense

05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP



TLDR: Jamison, Mo, Zydrunas and Hughes were superior offensively to 90' Pippen, while also having better team defense (the 90' Bulls had the #19 defense)




The 2007 Cavs had the #3 defense and #2 rebounding team in the league, along with a 2-time all-star center, the future COY, and the acquisition of a 22/5/5 all-defender.

that's EASILY enough to be a top team in a weak conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd)

Fans and media are simply massively misperceiving those Cavs.

Infact, lebron's 1 seeds from 09' and 10' had higher-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls, with superior offensive 3rd options, and comparable offensive 2nd options to Pippen.

Ultimately.... Jamison, Mo, Zydrunas and Hughes were better offensively than 90' Pippen (stats above), while having better team defenses.. So Jordan had less help on both sides of the ball but nearly beat the champs in 89' and 90', while lebron was swept (07'), lottery (05'), or lost as the favorite (09' and 10').

Everyone’s better than Pippen now. Again, we’ve been over these stats severely discount defensive ability.

Why couldn’t old ass MJ will the wizards to glory? Seems like he should have brought his winning mentality.

I see you ignore the fact that you’re pathetic enough to just post in similar threads throughout the internet where everyone normally makes fun of how pathetic and ridiculous you are.

The Bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat and inferior defenses in 2 of 3 Finals and 2 of 3 ECF.

So Pippen's defense didn't give the Bulls an advantage because individual defense is offset by 4 other defenders, whereas there's only one 2nd option scoring role..

That's why anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's offensive underperformance that caused it - see the 92' ECSF, where the Bulls were expected to walk through New York... but they almost lost because Pippen was destroyed by X-man - only Pippen underperformed...

Ditto the 96' Finals, 98' ECF, 89' ECF, and countless other series that Pippen's poor performance nearly caused loss... too many to list here... Again, anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's fault

Pippen was quite unreliable but no one noticed because it was all about MJ - most people don't know how bad he was in the 96' Finals or 93' 1st Round because no one paid attention to Pippen or tracked his performance... otoh, someone like Paul George would get crucified for playing like Pippen did

Seems like this was the worst era ever if one man essentially won a title 6 times. It’s either, MJ has a great team or he put his team on his back. In the second case, it’s like that it was only possible due to a weak era. I believe the bulls were very elite including Pippen but that’s not the story you take every post.

Ask any fan or even basketball average joe which players you’ve compared Pippen to, who’d they select, I’m betting you hands down Pippen is selected every time. You can continue to downplay his importance, but it weakens your argument.

I don’t think that is 3ball point tho .
In vacuum it is always pippen of course .

But like a lot here always downgrade LeBron teammates in a defeat because they were not in their A game always .
Same can be said about pippen as well , stats seem to back this up, shrug .

If Jordan had a pippen as good as he could be every time, Jordan could easily had another ring .
7th game 1990 CF is a clear example of that .

3ball wants both sides, they don’t make any sense. That’s my entire point, he wants to downplay MJ’s teammates constantly. Lebron had good teammates, some great and some just mediocre. I don’t think they’re awful but in many cases they are not on par with other great teams/legacy teams. like seriously I’m a Jamison fan, I have his jersey from UNC—he’s nowhere near comparable to Pippen or any key player on any great title team.

Cool

I think you're far too optimistic. Basketball is a lot more like soccer than people like to admit - a lot more quantified events happen in basketball so it yields more data for us to crunch, creating this illusion that statistics are a reasonable reflection of reality, but fundamentally events that happen in a basketball are affected by everyone on the court in a way that's difficult to isolate, despite our best attempts to do so. We joke about things like hockey assists and screen assists but what they reveal isn't so much that these specific things are as valuable as or less valuable than real assists, but more that sometimes it takes a whole team to score and there's no good way to statistically divide up the contribution to all parties involved (and the same goes for negative events and we are even worse at accounting for individual contributions to defense). And even if we could analyze the game perfectly and understand each player's contribution to their team's success or lack thereof, you still have to account for hypotheticals (maybe A added more value than B, but maybe A was disproportionately in situations where it was easier for him to add value) and different notions of value (how should we weigh regular season vs playoffs and peak value vs career value).

Jordan beats lebron in individual offense (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), team offense, and winning rings as the best player

That's more than enough to know Jordan is far superior

It's simple denial to hope for some magical stat in the future that will crown your guy - that means your guy already lost and is inferior..




The Bulls had the #7 team defense during the 1st three-peat, including inferior defenses in 2 of 3 Finals and 2 of 3 ECF.

So the poor defense of teammates apparently offset Pippen's good defense, which resulted in the #7 team defense - this shows that individual defense is less impactful than a 2nd option scoring role (there's only one such role).

Ultimately, Pippen's peak of 22 ppg is 6 to 10 points less than elite 1st options like Wade, AD, Kobe, Curry, etc - so he was a true 2nd option, and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks that every other top 10 player enjoyed..

Only Jordan lacked an elite 1st option sidekick - he was stuck with Pippen and an inferior team defense.
.

.
PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9.............1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031............ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER...'.. 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2............ 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187.......... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1............ 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER...'.. 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0............ 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136............ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.'... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3............ 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122............ 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1............ 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090............ 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7............ 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095............ 16.4


CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

Was the league weak when Dirk carried the Mavs to the 2011 title? Was the era weak?

The gap between Jordan and Pippen's stats for all 6 rings was far greater than the gap between Dirk and his sidekick in 2011 Playoffs (stats in previous post above), so Jordan had 6 carry-jobs that were greater than Dirk's 2011 ring.. And pippen's peak stats were LOW, so the gap was due to his weak production.

Furthermore, league expansion diluted the top-heavy, super-team 80's, so the talent was spread around evenly in the 90's (parity) - so only 2 stars were required to make the Finals and obviously, the goat + anyone will dominate a 2-star vs 2-star format..

3ball you cleaned out this division. They haven't even responded to your older points don't hurt them with the new sauce

Exactly, the parity you speak of is weakness.

BTW, your post earlier, Lebron has eclipsed MJ in career VORP already.

Yugioh what have you brought to this argument other than piling on the pathetic arguments of 2 crazy folk? It's weird that almost all the MJ defenders are not SE regulars and never post in any other SE threads.

Negative

Top-heavy leagues are characterized by 2 super-teams that like the Celtics/Lakers in the 80's... Or the Cavs/Warriors were the only teams with "big 3's" from 15-17', or the Heat/Spurs in 13/14.

Otoh, parity is characterized by evenly-spread talent, so the requirement to be a Finals-caliber team is less (only 2 stars required), which resulted in many Finals-caliber teams

Obviously, it's harder to be one of many Finals-caliber teams (parity) , than 1 of 2 (top-heavy league).




VORP is an accumulation stat based on games played, so you can only look at individual seasons, and Jordan has 5 of the top 7 VORP seasons ever

So again, Jordan beats lebron in individual offense (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), team offense, and winning rings as the best player

Bill Russell:

https://ca.nba.com/news/why-bill-rus...b187y3sya3veix

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar:

https://ca.nba.com/news/kareem-abdul...x1d8ok9aw2yht8

Lebron James:

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/s...court/2379233/

Michael Jordan:

lol that might be the best one in the thread. lebron builds schools and sends kids to college. Jordan gambles and womanizes.

Obviously, you never know really about anyone, but it is remarkable on the surface, Lebron just seems like a really great son, husband, father of 3. And wants to use his power to make the world better. Some speculation about how he is so big (I have no reason to think it's not all genetics, hard work, and the million/year he said he spends on sleep chambers, and trainers, diet, and cutting edge supplements, etc) ...but you never hear anything off the court with this guy.

Jordan...you know man...if Jordan can't gamble and womanize what hope is there for the rest of us?

Jordan is furnishing the world with cool shoes ... kind of altruistic don't you think?

and think of all the child labor he has increased!

05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 team defense


TLDR: 90' Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs on both sides of the ball - the bulls had the #19 defense and worse offensive teammates across the board, starting with the sidekicks (shown above).

Otoh, prime Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy - he wasn't title-worthy with the #19 defense and weak offensive teammates like 90' Jordan was..




People forget that the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas were lottery, and needed to acquire a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the playoffs in 06'.. That's a lot of help and easily enough help to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan just had a rebounder (oakley) in a conference that required a super-team to win.




2018 Celtics.... 55 wins... #7 SRS.. 1 all-star.. 3.6 net rating

1989 Cavs........ 57 wins.. #1 SRS.. 3 all-star.. 7.7 net rating
1989 Knicks..... 52 wins.. #8 SRS.. 2 all-star.. 3.7 net rating


It was pre-title Jordan and his sophomore low seed that beat the 89' Cavs, whereas Lebron was a veteran champion with a veteran champion team when he beat the 18' Celtics rookies..

Also, 89' Ewing was a dominant player and vastly superior to anyone on the 18' Celtics..

Ultimately, the 18' Celtics were a weak team and who cares about carry-jobs against weak teams?... The historical record shows that lebron can't beat top 5 SRS teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick - so he has zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing.. (see the 15' ECF for a good example).

Lebron can't have carry-jobs against good teams because he's poor at the additional contested jumpshooting required of tough carry-jobs.. the stats show that he avoids contested jumpshots )defers them to teammates)

I never knew getting blown out in game 7 of the conference finals was almost winning the ship!

How did Mike Brown’s head coaching career go without Lebron?

3ball never fails to deliver


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He leads the finals (either team!) in Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, and Steals, as the Cavs beat the 73 win Warriors in the NBA finals.

And you get guys saying this somehow.

I can't wait to see the Lakers win another ship this year and all the Jordan stans post in circles trying to diminish the one true GOAT!