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Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat - 14' Wade vs 93' Pippen


Playoffs

14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg




My "receipts" that pippen sucks are from the playoffs - none of my stats are from the regular season, which your accolades pertain to

Outside of 91' and 92', Pippen was bad every year in the playoffs.. nowhere near all-nba:

88-90' - 12 on 42% vs Pistons

1993 - worse than 14' Wade.. 16.9 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 2.0 BPM... 45.9% TS in Finals.. 50.0 TS overall

1994 - Kukoc led team in BPM... 3 teammates had higher WS/48... 21 on 40% in 2nd Round including 3 chokes (sit-out game, dumb-foul game, game 7).. destroyed by Ewing

1995 - 19 on 40% in ECSF (caused loss)

96-98 - 17 on 41% for entire 2nd three-peat... Many horrific series

1999 - 18 on 32% in 1st round loss

00-03' - 187th option for the Blazers.. 9 ppg player

So Pippen nearly always sucked in the playoffs.. and his peak playoff capability is far below everyone's (Kyrie, AD, Wade, Worthy, KJ, McHale, Kemp....... EVERYONE)

only his 91' run was without blemish (except the dumb foul on Vlade that nearly lost Game 3 of the Finals.. MJ had to save team)...

He was okay in 1992, except his horrible performance in the ECSF that nearly caused loss and unnecessary 7 game series vs Knicks - this isn't debateable - ONLY PIPPEN'S POOR PLAY caused the unexpected close series..

He sucked every other year

So again, MJ built Pippen into an all-nba regular season player, and then carried him in playoffs..

Virtually everyone says that rookie Pippen benefitted tremendously by landing next to the DPOY and scoring champ

So virtually everyone says Pippen was helped tremendously by Jordan, whereas all of lebron's teammates were stars BEFORE playing with lebron
.

reduction in stats don't mean anything. like you go from 1st option to 3rd and your usage drops, your stats are going to drop. you don't think MJ, one of the highest usages of all time, hurt his teammate's stats at all? GTFO. Pippen was what 3rd in the MVP the year MJ totally missed and never that high in other years? weird, having an all time great potentially hurts your teammate's stats. who cares, when it leads to wins it doesn't matter in either cases. the reason lebron lost in the finals/playoffs is not due to jamison scoring dropping, it's because the team as a whole was flawed and Lebron didn't have the best team. you act like boston didn't have 3/4 HOFers; Lebron played out of his mind and still lost to Orlando. One player can only do so much with a flawed team.

MJ had flawed teams, and lost. MJ had great teams and didn't really lose. Lebron had flawed teams, and lost. Would you consider MJ that much worse if instead of losing/retire the MJ bulls lost to Houston in B2B finals? Or if he stayed on the team and they didn't win it all in 1999?

It doesn't matter UNLESS he made the Finals.

Then we have a crisis of identity.

If he lost in earlier rounds, he's still the GOAT (See: '95).

MJ has the goat championship frequency of 3-pointer basketball

6/15 = 40.0%

So he lost less than everyone in 3-pointer basketball (only 9 in 15 seasons.. and 4 of those seasons were shortened seasons or MJ was 40.. so it's 5/11, aka he mostly WON)

Btw, lebron is king of 2nd Round losses (06', 08', 10').. and with high seeds every time... Jordan only lost as a rookie/sophomore 8 seed, so who cares

By that logic 11/13 for Bill makes him the GOAT. Case closed. Glad we cleared that up.

Paul George was 3rd in MVP too

both are trash except George's stats are better



Did you look at the stats or are you making things up?

Pippen averaged 22.0 and 5.6 apg in 1994

This was nearly the same alongside MJ, and actually less than 1992 (21.0 and 7.0).

So Pippen and other teammates played to capacity next to MJ, and their stats increased from single-digit in 88' (pippen/grant/bj) to korver all-star by 94'.

Otoh, lebron cratered teammate stats, and no young players grew/increased alongside him



Klay averaged 20 ppg as the 3rd option alongside Durant, so Durant didn't reduce Klay's stats like lebron cratered Love and Bosh

And that's because KD gets elite stats by holding the ball for 4 minutes per game, while Lebron needs 8 minutes - so klay has 4 more minutes of hold-time alongside KD.. these are mathematical facts.. lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance kills teammates. It's intuitive, and obvious fact... Supported by endless stats

Love and Bosh were stars and would've been dynamic players alongside MJ the way Klay was alongside KD.. Or worthy/parish alongside magic/bird.. or ginobili is viewed as a HOF, not a bum like Bosh/Love after playing with lebron.

Also, guys like Jamison, Hughes, Ingram, Rose, Crowder and others didn't go from 1st to 3rd option.. they remained the option they were, or went from 1st to 2nd



In the regular season, teams play games and move on to the next team on the schedule - there's no time to strategize at all - that's why guys with massive holes in their game can win 60 games in the regular season, and then get exposed in the playoffs (lebron, giannis)

Stan Van Gundy said they wanted lebron to "dribble and get stats".. So Lebron's suboptimal style (no ball movement) is why he lost to a massive underdog like the Magic.

Lebron had the #3 defense and got 18 on 38% from Mo - that's enough to beat the #4 SRS Magic because MJ beat the #1 SRS Cavs with 15 on 40% from Pippen and the #11 defense.. MJ won with less because he employed a superior style that got more put of teams.

Ultimately, Lebron had an AAU skillset and didn't know how to play pre-2012 - that's why he lost as the favored 1-seed for 3 straight years (09-11')



Lebron, Magic, Bird, Kareem - literally everyone - lost 5+ times with 1 or 2 seeds

Only MJ never lost with a 1 or 2 seed (6-0)

MJ only lost with low seeds or as an underdog, while Lebron lost many times with favored, high seeds... No comparison



The 94' Knicks nearly beat Houston despite Ewing shooting 33%.. so the bulls would've swept Houston with MJ

Heck, the Bulls nearly beat the Knicks with pippen at 21 on 40%, so Jordan would've won easily in pippen's place AND beaten Houston.. Houston was aids and not a real champion.. the bulls would've been favored with Jordan and no pippen, and the biggest favorites ever with both
.

hes like the guy that just adds up everyone's points per game and then thinks zomg great team.

Sure, Russell was goat when defense won rings - before offensive basketball began

But ever since the 3-point line was instituted, all 40 league MVP's were dominant offensive players, so Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in 3-pointer basketball

That's why mj is goat - he has twice as many rings as anyone else in 3-pointer basketball, as the clear-cut best player on his team.. 2nd place has 3 (magic, duncan, lebron)

No I responded to each of Capone's points thoroughly and corrected what I feel are gross misperceptions on his part

is it impossible for pippen a little known but highly rated prospect who went top 10 wouldn't have improved on his own? seems crazy to assume that MJ was the sole reason for Pippen's success at multiple levels.

again you can point examples, great. but as a whole your points don't always hold true.

He would've improved of course

guys like Larry Nance, Kemp and Iggy improved without MJ..

but with MJ they'd have 3-peats and inflated top 30 status, even if they usually stunk it up

Of course we know that Kemp dominated the 96' Finals, while pippen was atrocious.. then Krause wanted to trade pippen for Kemp in 97'.. he was literally begging Seattle and offering millions for them to take pippen... top 30 doh

There's one thing that virtually everyone agrees on - pippen benefitted tremendously from playing with MJ.. Otoh, everyone thinks bosh/love and many others are trash after playing with lebron.. this is hilarious because pippen was actual trash after playing with MJ in 99', but still top 30 doh
.

Those players you mention aren’t trash, they just aren’t top 25 all time great players and are flawed. Love and Bosh were great on bad teams and were still pretty great on the Heat/Cavs in their roles. Both had injury issues too that they dealt with. Arguably both their greatest assets on their previous teams were bulk scoring which is valued less when you have other superstars on the team. They could still rebound at a high level and play d. Love only played poorly in the playoffs his last year together with Lebron and that was due to injury.

Klay averaged 20 as the 3rd option alongside Durant, so Durant didn't reduce Klay's stats like lebron cratered Love and Bosh

And that's because KD gets elite stats by holding the ball for 4.6 minutes per game, while Lebron needs 9.6 minutes

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1


so klay has 5 more minutes of potential hold-time alongside KD.. these are mathematical facts.. lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance kills teammates. It's intuitive, and obvious fact... Supported by endless stats

Similar to klay, worthy/parish were considered great alongside magic/bird.. or ginobili is viewed as a HOF, not a bum like Bosh/Love after playing with lebron.

MJ played during the 3 point era like the guys who played when they first instituted the legal forward pass played during the passing era.

Nice try bro.

MJ's era was closer to Russell's.

Sure , if you think individual dominance means nothing ......
Wilt was playing at the same time and look the difference .

Pretty insane to think practicing ( hard !) with the goat for like 10 years and think it only help slightly pippen is ridiculous .....

Why you think pippen was much better defensively than attacking in his career huh ?
You think Jordan being a phenomenal attacking force as nothing to do with it ?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottie_Pippen

« With teammate Michael Jordan as a motivational and instructional mentor, Pippen refined his skills and slowly developed many new ones over his career. Jordan and Pippen frequently played one-on-one outside of team practices, simply to hone each other's skills on offense and defense ».

Obviously doesn’t take a brain to deduct it but just posting it for clarity ...

lebron's career started only 5 years after Jordan's Bulls career, so they faced many of the same players.... otoh, they faced zero players that Russell faced, who played 20 years before MJ started

So you're just in your own world making up your own facts

Carry on the fraud tho

Good thing LeBron had such a long career to dovetail into the modern era.

When LeBron beat the Pistons it's not nearly the same game as when he beat the Warriors or Heat.

Lol "fraud."

No one is calling MJ a fraud, you delegitimize all your arguments when you diminish every other accomplishment by every other player. You're the partisan, not me. I'm not a fan of any player, let alone it being a personal crusade for years of my free time.

Those hours aren't coming back.

Hmmmm, wonder what it looked like in the mid 90s.

It's over bro.

Move on to a new hobby. Bron GOAT, MJ GOAT of the era similar to Jim Brown and Otto Graham's titles.

YA Tittle was very good too. Russell is Slingin' Sammy Baugh.

LeBron is the silent movie star that won the Oscars during the talkies.

Relevant:

lebron will fall on his face in the next year or rwo because history says so

History shows that a ball movement team will destroy lebron just like the Mavs, Spurs and Warriors - lebron is 2-7 against these ball movement teams and actually 1-8 if we take away the Ray Allen save (lebron was a net negative in that series - the Heat lost with him on the floor)

Ball movement is lebron's kryptonite so it's only a matter of time.. I'm now a warriors and Curry fan because a Warrior resurgence is the best chance to beat AD or maybe Denver will add a big piece

so a ball movement team will destroy him and massively out-assist his team like his previous Finals losses... And he'll probably let another wing go off and win FMVP, just like Iggy, Kawhi and his daddy KD.. maybe Jimmy will torch him again.. but I think it will be KD and Kyrie.. karma's a *****

It's funny that lebron left the Cavs because he didn't think he could win organically with a 1-star team, and then Dirk destroys him with an organic, 1-star team.. lololol... lebron was a lesser man than Dirk and couldn't ride the ups and downs of staying with the same team.. then the Spurs demolished lebron in 14' after lebron got lucky in 13'.. so karma happens to lebron and it will happen again.. history repeats itself and that's who lebron IS (he fields teams that lose on the championship level, aka inferior championship expectation)