😂

The whole "won't win another game" prediction was out on a limb for sure, but the overall point remains the same - SGA, Luka and Ant are in the same boat, aka LOSERS, while the only non-ball-dominant player left (Tatum) will come out on top.

You can predict the winners by sorting time of possession in reverse - that means that Tatum wins this year, just like Jokic won last year, and Curry the year before that... Generally, non-ball-dominant players have better teams than ball-dominant players because they allow the ball to move - this fosters great chemistry, which allows a great-performing cast, aka great team.

And ball-dominators can't win organically and never have - Magic forced his way to join Kareem, while Lebron obviously formed super-teams too.. Ball-dominators impose spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. btw, Isiah wasn't a ball-dominator, similar to Curry and Parker - they all had low time of possession for point guards.

Haliburton somewhere in the thread title between Wembo and LeBron soon

Jokic and 'team chemistry' ball surrenders the largest game 7 lead in NBA history to Antman and downhill bully 'needs more help' ball. Shocking.

The bar for Jokic to get back in the thread title should be high - higher than the standard he will be held to for this loss compared to LeBron (can you imagine?).

Jokic is never returning to the thread title.

Almost like it’s harder to win tons of championships in the modern era with a much deeper international talent pool, free agency, intensity of play, upcoming CBA rules etc. can’t stand around and watch isolation against expansion players with a shortened 3 point line.

But either way, Jokic lost a playoff series as a -175 favorite or better so he’s automatically disqualified from being the GOAT - those are the rules, with 1995 Bulls Magic being the exception.

Guys let’s pump the brakes a bit. We have been assUred by the nephews that be that only Leb0rn fans understand that “variance is a thing”.

Jokic is a 3 time MVP and team success is only variance. Much like leb0rn, Jokic does not have any help and his loss here is just variance.

Once you take into account the fact that the league is exp0nentially better now with more internat1onal players and thus greater competition than LeBon had in the ‘00’s and ‘10’s, and the advanced $tat$ of the Joker (u guys remember advanced $tat$, right lol?), Nikola Jokic is easily the GOAT. Based on the arguments laid forth previously in this thread, of course. Based on that.

Can we get a list of ball dominant vs. non ball dominant stars for future reference? Tatum is confusing to me since the single biggest criticism of his game is that he sometimes goes Kobe wannabe in crunch time.

SGA is one of the least ball-dominant superstars in this game and also literally plays (really well) in an offense that's designed to move the ball a ton, but I guess a super-skilled 6-6 point guard is sufficiently triggering for twog.

Nice try sir, good effort, etc

Never forget that TWOG handwaved away Nuggets' 45-point loss as a meaningless "giveway" game, but I'm sure he has more excuses for the Nuggets losing game 7 at home too and failing to win 2 closeout games.

Not a good look for the Jokic > LeBron take. Please write more essays about "ball dominance" TWOG. I'm sure everyone is DYING to read them.

I'm looking at the points algorithm now and when Antman titles in two weeks he takes the number one spot.

SGA's time of possession is 7.9 minutes, so basically 8 minutes, and he's assisted on a paltry 15% of his shots.

Not only is that a lot of ball-dominance, it's an all-time level.

And this ball-dominance is reflected in team assists - 21st last year and 11th this year - the ball isn't moving at an elite level.

If you can't understand that then you simply don't understand the stats or how to interpret them.

“Every year you can reverse sort by time of possession to see who wins”

Curry playoffs 2022: 6.5 min per game TOP, 35 MPG
Tatum playoffs 2022: 5.5 min per game TOP, 41 MPG

How did Golden State win in the Finals?

Jamal Murray playoffs 2023: 7.9 min per game TOP, 40 MPG
Jokic playoffs 2023: 5.1 min per game TOP, 39 MPG
Butler playoffs 2023: 6.4 min per game TOP, 40 MPG
Lebron playoffs 2023: 5 min per game TOP, 39 MPG

How did Denver win in the ECF and Finals?

Don’t look up Edwards time of possession vs Murray and Jokic either for this year’s playoffs!

Thank you kind sir. But just to clarify I cann0t assume credit for such excellent, well thought out arguments. I am beholden to thee LeB0n fans in this very thread, for they are the same argument that have been repeated to great extent over the past 11 years. So you can also thank the LeBorn James fans for said arguments, not just me.

LeBron keeps his spot as #1 GOAT all time.



Jordan can still release another documentary shitting on Pippen as red meat to his acolytes but that won't move the needle.

Do you think that if the Joker left Denver and teamed up with say, Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum (as an example, I am sure there are many possible all-star combo players he could potentially team up with), it would help his GOAT resume if he won 2 titles in 4 years after that? You know, since Jokic does n0t have any help?

hahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Jordan stans are so brainwashed, lmfao

This is an excellent p0int. You know, since the NBA does not evolve exp0nentially and there it n0t more international presence now in 2024 vs when lebon was peaking in the 2000’s and 2010’s, and there is no variance in team results, and it does not matter that Jokic has no heLp. An excellent argument indeed.

11 years ago fallguy spoke the truth:

Jordan's only chance at regaining more #1 votes is to make his own LeBron documentary and hire fallguy as his script writer.


Considering how MJ stans are massive PPGZ!! proponents, fallguy could rile the base with all the posting in this thread as material!

In all seriousness.


People can put Jordan as their #1 GOAT. But if they don't IMMEDIATELY follow that up with Bron 1B or Bron close 2nd GOAT all time... Then they fail the test immediately and their GOAT opinion is to be discarded.

This is a very reasonable take.

IMO an even more conservative take would be Bill Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, LeBron, and Jokic (seriously) are all tier 1 GOAT with enough error bars between them that we can never know for sure.

Too many rule differences bw eras. Differences in individual stats vs team success (Russell vs Wilt), some skill and /or athleticism improvement (Jokic dominating the “most evolved” era).

None of those answers would be wrong, per se, if you acknowledge there are different ways to look at this.

Any thinking person can figure out that these metrics can help inform, but literally cannot tell us anything useful in the absence of context. For example, a lot of this "time of possession" is just time spent bringing up the ball, holding the ball while the half-court offense gets set, holding the ball to run down the shot clock while ahead late. None of these helps the player in question in terms of conventional stats, but can potentially lead to turnovers. Sure it does also help flag certain types of players, though I think it's literally just Luka and Harden - I can't think of any other player whose "ball-domination" has been a big issue from a team offense perspective recently. And the real issue isn't even that they are holding the ball too much, but more that they don't do enough off-ball, presumably because they are exhausted from having the ball too much and also because they are just not used to having to work off-ball.

It does suit twog really well though because he's super-triggered by players with good handle and individual skills and those types of players are generally asked to handle the ball in those situations.

One might call his brand of posting "Thread dominance". But I consider it an inferior one, incapable of making good points or changing minds without serious help.