yes, tons of guys hated on MJ early on and said he shot too much, but he proved everyone wrong by winning titles by shooting and scoring just as much.. and it turns out that everyone grew by leaps and bounds alongside him and had great fits, while developing the best 2-point jumpshot by 1987.

But again, he was incorrectly knocked early on and had to prove everyone wrong - he was already doing this by 88', and of course the historic 89' run with upsets in every round and nearly beat the Bad Boys with no help.. The Bulls were the only team to win any games off the Pistons in the 89' Playoffs and they had a real chance to beat them if Pippen doesn't quit in Games 5 and 6 - he played 1 minute in Game 6.

Do you still not know how to read? Is that Magic hating on MJ?

You haven't refuted anything... Lebron frequently has bad chemistry with a wide range of teammates - this is a historical fact based on bad fits with Bosh, Love, Ingram, Westbrook, Wade, Hughes, Jamison, and more.

And the reason Lebron has bad chemistry is because his skillset is a down-hill skillset that isn't 5-man basketball, so he isn't capable of fostering the great chemistry that allows a great-performing cast, aka great team.. Since he lacks the skill to foster chemistry, he always "need more help".. But regardless of who we surround him with, his skillset isn't capable of mostly winning and he mostly loses with every cast.

This hasn't been refuted because it's literally the historical record.. There are DATES associated with all these things, such as Love cratering in 2015, or the bad fit with Ingram or Westbrook in 2019 or 2022, respectively.





Better than Ant's...

The modern player is a "down-hill" player, which isn't 5-man basketball, so it isn't just me that has better brand of ball than Ant... It's anybody that came up in prior eras before the "down-hill" skillset (weak brand) became a primary strategy.. In my day, the "down-hill" approach was used frequently but not the primary strategy.. It's absurd to make it the primary strategy unless you want a low team ceiling and perennial frustration/losing.

Ultimately, the modern player is a loser that lacks the brand of ball to succeed in prior eras, and prior eras also didn't have the spacing that today's "down-hill" skillset requires.

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See this is why I crap on Pippen

Cowherd:

"Once they get Ant a great running mate - his "pippen" - watch out"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNQlR81jqIU&t=01m02s

So KAT, Gobert, McDaniels and the most length in the league isn't enough?.. Ant needs this mythical "pippen" to save him?... A 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg?... wtf is Colin talking about?

The excuse for anyone not achieving Jordan's caliber of winning is that they didn't have their "pippen", which implies that Pippen is a shaq-like savior instead of the guy getting saved and carried statistically.. Pippen is just the guy that happens to be there when Ant wins - that's what a "pippen" is - and it's Ant's job to carry this pippen the same way Jordan did, which means carrying KAT's 18 ppg and weak mentality the same way MJ carried Pippen's..

Colin and the Lebron media are just fraudsters and creating false narratives to deflate Jordan's goat winning achievement.. The problem is that they actually believe this crap - they actually think Pippen is a top 30 all-timer instead of inferior to Larry Nance and never even reaching the peak impact of an Andre Igoudala.

tbh, opponents that were in the league and facing Jordan - they never trashed Jordan - it was just the media trying to explain why a guy that appears to be better than Magic or Bird isn't winning like they were.. the media concluded that he scored too much and would never win as scoring champ or by scoring those amounts... They were obviously wrong... By 1990, MJ had won MVP and had a significant history of developing teammates such as Woolridge, Oakley, Sam Vincent, Grant and Pippen - all of these guys grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ, while literally zero young players grew into meaningful producers on Lebron's watch.. Ultimately, Lebron's down-hill skillset imposes spot-up roles that prevents the elite chemistry needed for a great-performing cast, aka great teams.. Since he can't foster great chemistry, he always needs "more help" - it's the story of his career.

That's all you got? So sounds like you're admitting that you're athletically inferior to modern players? And also that you were far less skilled than modern players like Ant? All you got is some "brand of ball" but wouldn't be able to hang against modern players like Ant?

Are you having trouble reading again? What did Magic say about MJ's progression? What does that say about young MJ?

How would you compare your game to Pippen's? What about your body?

lol "shaq-like savior"

Way to slip that jab in at the greatest post-Magic Laker of all-time.

it was a reddit - not a real source so i haven't read it - i just know that Magic never trashed Jordan

it's funny because there's this false narrative about the 4th quarter of Game 5 in the 91' Finals - apparently that was when Phil finally taught Jordan how to pass by telling him that "Paxson is open"

however, that was just x's and o's - nothing more - Mike Malone will tell Jokic or Murray that "X player will be open here" - it's standard x's and o's that were blown up into a false narrative by the media...

MJ was already averaging 11 assists in that series before Game 5 and he averaged 6 assists from day 1 in the NBA - every teammate grew by leaps and bounds alongside him - there was never a period where teammates weren't growing and chemistry wasn't improving - he nearly beat the champs in 89' with nothing.. Give Jordan an all-star teammate in 1989 and he 3-peats with Doug Collins and Collins would be the HOF "goat coach", not Phil.

it's weird that MJ is the only player in history that "needed to make teammates better", while everyone else just needs more help.. When other guys lose, it's because they didn't have enough help, whereas MJ's losses were blamed on him not knowing how to play... it's just a false narrative that arose from jealousy - seeing someone score so much better than everyone else created a lot of false narratives.. MJ was a high assist and low turnover player from day 1.

Ultimately, Jordan simply needed a minimum amount of help to win and that help has been inflated beyond belief - he won 6 rings with no cast - if Lebron had Jordan's 3-peat casts, he would struggle to make the playoffs and everyone would say he needed more help.. The Bulls' cast was nothing compared to what Lebron needed to win.. The Bulls had zero rim protection, unathletic guards and no scoring help compared to the teams Lebron won with...

People will call bs but when did Lebron win as 1st option without 2 star teammates.. The one time that he won with just 1 star teammate, Lebron was 2nd option for that playoff run... And when did he beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick?... So how could he win with 15.7 on 34% from Pippen in the 96' Finals, or 19 on 42% for his Finals career?... Lebron needs guys to match him, such as Kyrie and Lebron both averaging 28 ppg for their Finals career.
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Many people felt that Kobe/Shaq were on equal terms from 2001 onwards, so the shaq reference was meant to indicate that getting a "pippen" was like getting an equal partner of sorts.

But that isn't what Pippen was.... A "pippen" isn't an equal partner.. A "pippen" is a low producer and nowhere near the 1st option, just like KAT is nowhere near Ant statistically... So it's Ant's job to carry this pippen the same way Jordan did, which means carrying Ant's 18 ppg and weak mentality the same way MJ carried Pippen's.. That's what the "pippen" is - it's the guy getting carried.
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On paper, Pippen and I have similar measurements.

This means that if you and I played, you would think I'm Pippen......

or Kobe.....

or MJ.....

you wouldn't be able to tell the difference because you never went within 10 feet of a ball in your life.. I'm sure one 6'7" dude smashing on you will feel the same as another 6'7" dude.

It's obvious you're trolling, but even the nature of your trolling indicates a very shallow understanding of basketball.

putting fall guy on ignore is the smartest thing i've done all year

Compared to the teams that Lebron won with, Jordan's Bulls had zero rim protection, unathletic guards and no scoring help.

When did Lebron win as 1st option without 2 star teammates??... Since he never won as 1st option with just 1 star teammate, he couldn't win with just Pippen... And when did he beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick?... So again, how could he win with Pippen???

Lebron needs guys that are capable of elite production and guys that can match him because Kyrie and Lebron both average 28 ppg for their Finals career - AD and Wade aren't far behind.. This is the caliber of help that Lebron's weaker brand of ball needs - he can't win with just one other star that averages 19 on 42% for their Finals career - this is simply FAR less than what Lebron actually won with.

MJ loses with Dave Corzine - "he needs to make teammates better"

Lebron loses with AD or Wade - "he needs better teammates"

Accordingly, only MJ is required to "make teammates better", while everyone else's losses are blamed on needing more help.

And history shows that Orlando Woolridge achieved a career high alongside rookie MJ in 85'... Sam Vincent, Oakley, Pippen, Grant and BJ also grew by leaps and bounds and achieved career highs - so there was never a point where MJ "didn't make teammates better", which is why the instant he got a modicum of help, he was unbeatable - he quickly proved all the narratives wrong and showed that he just needed a tiny bit of help..

Otoh, zero young players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch.. He also imposes spot-up roles on veterans and often has bad fits, so Lebron is actually the guy that doesn't make teammates better and has zero young player development in 21 years.

Btw, MJ was nearly beating the Bad Boys with no help in 89' before Phil arrived and they might have won that year if Pippen didn't miss game 6 of the ECF (the "real" migraine) - people simply don't realize that Phil inherited a team on the cusp of a title... Yet Phil was excused for losing in 1990 due to the "migraine", while Collins was fired despite having a much worse version of Pippen... So all the narratives about Jordan were wrong.. Heck, he knew how to win as a freshman at North Carolina, while Ant was 5-13 in the SEC as a freshman and was a massive loser until this season.. At no point in Ant's career is he anywhere near MJ.

since joining 2p2 less than a year ago, all but 3 of fg's posts have been in this thread. i can only assume the others were in a lebron-specific thread. since sep '23 he has accounted for 28% of posts ITT and 77% of total words posted. that is dedication. #advancedthreadanalytics

Some people have the fire.

This is his containment thread.


His 3 posts were in the NBA thread (about Jordan of course). I temp banned him 48 hours and if he were to enter that thread again to spew Jordan GOAT nonsense he will be permabanned.


BTW, He's been banned well over 100 times.

You can't ban away mental illness

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Here's a relevant thread from another forum where the poster cannot understand how the Mavs won with Luka and Kyrie playing badly:

If the poster in that forum read this thread, he would know that ball-domination is easy to beat - you don't need a lot to beat it.. Ball-domination is a crap brand of ball and this is further evidence..

See that's why I have to post - all the real world events support my prognostications and perceptions of how things work and what will happen.

In this case, SGA is a massive ball-dominator, so it he lost as the favorite just like Lebron in 2009 - you don't need a lot to beat this inferior brand of ball.. 1-star teams like Dwight's Magic or Luka's Mavs is more than enough - they don't even need 7 games.. (fyi Kyrie was MIA in this series)

Now let's watch the Nuggets do the same thing that the Mavs just did - let's watch the Nuggets not need to play great to beat Luka-ball.

I'll stop when this thread hits 1000 pages, if it gets that far..

So when the aliens take over the earth in the future, they'll have a cool 1000 pages that they'll read in 2 seconds to know that lebron was a fraud and MJ was the real deal GOAT.

How is winning 2 out of 4 championships with the Heatles "mostly losing"?

He doesn't really count the 2013 title because Ray Allen made a clutch shot and since it wasn't Lebron it's a fake ring

Makes sense.

I guess that's the #1 reason MJ is GOAT - everyone else is carried compared to him - this would be the worst series of Jordan's career when you consider everything.

It's Boston's title to lose

KAT, Gobert, McDaniels, Conley = Finals loss to the mighty Jayson Tatum

Pippen, Cartwright, Horace, Paxson = 3-peat over Magic, Drexler, Barkley

That's the difference between a 6'4" rudimentary shot-maker with baby steps and baby hands compared to a 6'6" guy that can get to the rim with 1 dribble and has infinite shot-making ability..

Btw, do you guys realize that Jordan averages more than twice the offensive rebounds as Ant? (1.6 to 0.7)... Jordan is a big man compared to Ant and has the all-round advantage that you guys say Lebron has, AND the massive scoring advantage that he always has on everyone... Ant's a shrimp that will get locked up in the Finals.