I said the term correctly but I didn't really draw the distinction from versatility that when I said range w/ Ewing I meant literally that. I'm not really able to find shooting from distance breakdowns during their primes (bbref only has their last 2 years - they retired the same year) but Nelson built an entire offense out of getting Ewing 17 foot jumpers when he was there, crazily he tried to use him almost like Dirk. Smits and Sam Perkins had that range but they're not in the discussion of great centers obv.

I didn't remember Hakeem using that kind of shot all that frequently or setting up shop 18 feet out like Duncan. Hakeem could play the 4 for sure though, I just think Duncan seems completely natural at the 4 or 5 where Hakeem is out of position but can do it. In the NBA you are who you can guard though and Hakeem could've def defended 4's like Malone and Kemp.

Zo could've played the 4 also fwiw, there was an off-season where his agent was debating trying to sell Mutombo and Zo as a package deal to a team.

Here is a clip of Hakeem hitting that shot and looking like Serge tho

I actually meant defensively. Dream can play the 4 much better defensively than Ewing. More of a natural in terms of fluidity, less big and bulky. Dream was probably a solid 3 inches and 20 pounds lighter than Ewing.

Offensively yeah Ewing seemed to face much more than someone like Duncan. Robinson faced up a ton as well from the elbow areas (not as far out as a Duncan/KG)

Right, I followed. It was my fault for not being more clear initially that I was talking about Duncan's overall versatility and then randomly brought up that Ewing was a more versatile offensive player with range than someone under 25 probably realizes. I did add the caveat about his foot speed so it wouldn't be misconstrued that he could guard 4's. Just thought he was a guy that I haven't seen discussed much in SE so felt like mentioning him.

It was also under the context of why I have Duncan as ~6 where TUT was saying he was overrated and we both already had Hakeem above him so I didn't feel the need for the qualifier that he's prbly the 2nd most versatile of the great centers but I did have the internal debate of whether to add it preemptively. Hakeem's #9 all time in steals ffs.

Hakeem is SE's most overrated

Lol no chance.

Tuq signal.

Etc.

Look at this roster that beat the Lakers in 5 and lost to a top 5 team OAT in 6. Hakeem top 5 for sure

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1986.html

Yeah if we're talking careers TD/KAJ/Hakeem prolly some order of 3-4-5 for me (not considering Wilt/Russell era guys). Talking primes Shaq is obv 3.

I'm not sure prime/peak Shaq isn't #1

You guys who think that MICHAEL JORDAN will naturally fade away into the mists of time are hugely underestimating his brand/legacy/legend. As far as 99% of global basketball fans are concerned, Michael Jordan had the ultimate career. A perfect career. The stats that most people care about (ppg, rings, awesome highlights, narrative) massively favor Jordan, like, not close. We can talk all all day about what a big jerkface Jordan may or may not be, but in the eyes of the non-2p2world, which is to say the world, he is forever more likable than Lebron (and pretty much everyone else too). IIRC, Jordan still has the highest Q-score of all athletes--a category that he's led for the last 25 years, which is insane. MJ is the most globally recognized and beloved athlete in the history of sports. "Nobody cares about Jerry West anymore." I mean haha no ****. No offense but it's maybe not a fair comparison, you're comparing apples to supernovas.

Of course every 2p2er reading this thread also realizes that much of Michael Jordan's godhood was just epic timing, a once-or-twice-a-century confluence of culture and technology and STUFF, i.e. he was the ultimate right place/right time guy. But it happened, and it's always how legend happens--if Abraham Lincoln were alive today he'd be just some ectomorph consultant with a sweet twitter account. Here in our universe, Michael Jordan is squarely and permanently in the Babe Ruth / Secretariat category of sports heroes. And while people are always going to argue that Mays/Bonds/Lebron/Sarah Jessica Parker are actually better because of this or that metric, none of that chatter matters when history's already slammed the gavel. USG% might make for some compelling internet arguments but to the one or two billion people who aren't posting itt, USG% is also never going to be what makes you levitate through arenas while gleaming through your ****ing pores.

At this point I do think MJ is the best basketball player of all time, but I don't think that's incontrovertible, and I'm not even arguing about that right now, I'm arguing against the many ppl itt who are trying to frame MJ as just another generational and thus semi-forgettable GOAT. Nope. Jordan, Babe Ruth, Muhammad Ali--for better and for worse, these are the supreme podium athletes of the 20th century, and Jordan has special status for being the guy who transformed the old school into the new. His career bio reads like ****ing Paul Bunyan. If he had retired after the Utah shot he'd probably be emperor of the Milky Way and Sombrero galaxies right now. And in the eyes of the world, never in MJ's whole career did he have a single instant as bad as a half-dozen transgressions/hero violations Lebron's already committed. Jordan's baseball adventure? It just humanized him. Which in turn paradoxically deified him ten times more. And while nobody remembers how bad he looked in 95 vs Orlando, no one will ever forget how bad Lebron looked in The Decision (TM). It's absolutely unfair, and imo Lebron deserves better, but UNFORGIVEN.jpg.

Yeah that is totally reasonable. Dude was just dominant on both ends of the floor in his prime. So much just depends on what kind of fit it would be when comparing wings to bigs as far as peak goes.

EM,

You're the Jordan of 2+2 writers (poster is prbly a pejorative in your case) and I'm thankful it got you to elicit that but I don't think many share the opinion you're refuting.

There's something about that name too. Babe Ruth, Larry Bird, Tiger Woods, Muhammed Ali, Kobe Bryant, Mickey Mantle, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Joe Montana ... Michael Jordan. On the surface his seems the most nondescript but there's something about it that resonates. There's a finality to the last syllable.

If his name was Scott Foster or Greg Ostertag I just think it would be different.

Too bad O.J. Mayo wasn't better

Meh think there's way a big four from that list ainec. Ruth, Ali, Tiger, and MJ are way different/more transcendent than the others. Part of what makes MJ MJ.

I actually think Shaq would struggle some if he played today. Offensively he would be as dominant as ever but the way these teams run PnR relentlessly now, I do think he would struggle quite a bit defensively and possibly after 5-6 years start to really develop some bad injuries on that 7'1 330 frame. A lot of these guys are having injury problems now playing in this era and this dude is 7'1 330, just a bad recipe.

In his prime with LAL Shaq struggled with PnR guys like Bibby, Billups, Parker. The Lakers always had a weakness at defending PGs. Today with Steph, Harden, Russ, CP3, Lillard, Ellis etc etc....Think he came along in the right era, i'll put it that way. I always wondered what would've happened Nash Suns vs Shaq/Kobe Lakers. The way guys like Bibby/Billups lit LAL up I just think that would've been a brutal matchup for them and a great juxtaposition in styles.

Also peak Shaq can't be the GOAT. Most dominant? yes but his FT shooting kryptonite was a real thing. There is a reason he needed prime Kobe/Wade to win titles (he wins maybe 2 with say Vince Carter or Paul Pierce as his sidekick imo)

lebron james would def have a better legacy if his crackhead hooker mother had bothered to come up with a real name for him. lebron is a bottom 1% of names worldwide and even compared to other made up black american names it's bottom 10%

JAMES JAMES would've been elite and is a play that doesn't get made enough

oh I totally disagree...I think LeBron James is a great basketball player name

LA-BRON JAMES AND THE CLEVELAND CAVALIERS

i think both lebron and kobe have names that people just remember

I remember wanting to see the Lakers win in '98 and face the Bulls in the finals. Rodman was on his last legs and Pippen's back was starting to go. I think Eddie Jones would've been by far the best defender that MJ had seen in the finals (you could argue GP but more of a PG) then the young Kobe vs MJ factor, etc. Shaq being more of a matchup problem than Malone (who Rodman always did fine vs)

Too bad Utah ran LAL off the court. The BBall gods always rob us I feel like.

how is there not more hate on this. this is terrible.

duncan would've given the 90's bulls more title equity than jordan did. hate all you want.

people treat jordan like he's twice as good as whomever they have ranked #3. assuming jordan is actually GOAT, he's 1% closer to being better. but honestly jordan might not be top 2.

you could've put robinson or hakeem, instead of jordan, on those bulls teams and they also win more than 6 title.

if jordan didn't retire in 1998, duncan would've put jordan in his place in 99.

Pippen gets underrated by casual fans but cmon, just replacing MJ with other greats and saying they get 6 is almost impossible to say.

Even if Duncan puts MJ in his place in '99 you are talking 24 y/o entering his prime vs 36 y/o MJ on an older team.

trade tony parker for scottie pippen and then let's see how well jordan does. duncan titles at least 2 more times. people credit michael jordan with jordan's offense plus pippen's defense, when saying he's goat like there's no real discussion.

Does MJ get Ginobili, Bowen, some D Rob as well? Not to mention MJ did face better teams in the finals than Duncan.

'99 Knicks, '03 Nets, '05 Pistons, '07 Cavs about as bad as it gets for finals teams.

MJ came into the league playing with Quiton Daily, Duncan came in playing with D Rob.

I almost never find myself on the MJ side of arguments because most people put him on an absurd pedestal like you said, but you're going a bit far.

isn't saying, that pippen for parker is an unfair trade, just supporting my point? pippen is goat defender who can also run your whole offense.

duncan carried that 2003 team. his #2 was a 37yo robinson who was playing his last season. so was prime manu his best teammate?

duncan (as a 37yo) also crushed lebron last year, arguably 2nd goat. put the spurs in the east this year, and they might've won again. let duncan play his career in east conference and play 1 tough team in the nba finals instead of dealing with west playoffs. just this year, they would've avoided clippers and posed matchup nightmare for warriors.

just saying that when it comes to environmental advantages, jordan binked them all in the 90s. of all the greatest players, duncan won the most nba titles with the least. played with no all-time great #2, played in loaded west conference, played against other top10 goats in shaq and lebron, yet still titled 5 times.

he's underrated