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Which of these is best basketball team? Which of these is best basketball team?
View Poll Results: Which team is the best?
Team A
138 93.24%
Team B
6 4.05%
Team C
4 2.70%

02-08-2011 , 04:56 PM
george mikan is the #1 C on my list though
Which of these is best basketball team? Quote
02-08-2011 , 04:57 PM
also cardsman,

you're not going to get much agreement with you here bc all your doing is basically saying "lol whatever you guys say i wont change my mind bc im right based on what i see"

that is a very very naive/elitist POV to have. all of us are more than welcome to have you prove that oscar is as good as u say he is and you are just completely unwilling to do the same despite much better/objective arguments presented for you

as far as bird vs lebron, wtf does the future matter? we're talking peak right?
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02-08-2011 , 04:58 PM
isiah thomas is weak. Bill Russell benefitted from the era he played and the fact that there were 8 teams in itl.

I think Shaq is #1, although with certain teams I could see how his strengths are less valuable.
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02-08-2011 , 04:58 PM
its just really not fair to compare a player from the 60s to even the 80s. the athletic ability is so much different, rule changes, talent pool, # of teams, etc.

my answer is always evolution, i'll take the more recent players if its close. some players are an exception and their athletic ability transcends their time. like a Dr J or magic at the point.

but i can just never put cob cousy or jerry west in the same argument w/ CP3 or dwayne wade.
Which of these is best basketball team? Quote
02-08-2011 , 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228
isiah thomas is weak. Bill Russell benefitted from the era he played and the fact that there were 8 teams in itl.

I think Shaq is #1, although with certain teams I could see how his strengths are less valuable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis M.H.
george mikan is the #1 C on my list though
.

Last edited by Francis M.H.; 02-08-2011 at 05:00 PM. Reason: and how the **** is isiah weak?
Which of these is best basketball team? Quote
02-08-2011 , 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardsman
The point was versatility, the jump shot was a branch off of that argument.
versatility is worthless when the same moves will work everytime and much more effective.
Which of these is best basketball team? Quote
02-08-2011 , 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardsman
Did you also read my later post where I say that I've seen plenty of full length games by Robertson
My point was that most of us are using stats to base our arguments on, so your claim of "you guys just watch too much ESPN" is completely LOL.


Quote:
We will have to disagree
What statistical work have you done? Have you done studies where you take stats and compare them to your prior notions based upon watching the games? What I'm telling you is that our community has done that a ton over the past 3+ years. We have guys working in NBA front offices now. We have guys doing podcasts, making websites, trying to come up with winning betting models, and so on and so on. In short, I don't see why you would be so quick to dismiss the findings of people who have done a ton of work on this subject unless you have also done a ton of work. So please do explain to me what type of statistical work you've done and why you've found it to be suboptimal in favor of "watching the games."


Quote:
Right now, that's the case imo. When Lebron is finished and his body of work is complete, ONCE AGAIN, he could be a top 5 all time player. I never said differently.
Lebron James right now is a better basketball player than Larry Bird ever was. I assume the point of this exercise is to put together the best 5 man team, not to put together a list of the 5 players who have the most awards/titles/accomlishments.


Quote:
I understand your position, I just don't agree with it.
Again, what are your qualifications? What studies and work have you done? Why are you so quick to dismiss us when we've done so much work/analysis on this subject?
Which of these is best basketball team? Quote
02-08-2011 , 05:06 PM
so do people wanna do that draft? I'm ready to set it up today, but I'd like to have a few more people express interest first....I'll check back later today, if theres interest then I'll look to get it started.
Which of these is best basketball team? Quote
02-08-2011 , 05:08 PM
im in ofc
Which of these is best basketball team? Quote
02-08-2011 , 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffRas22
also cardsman,

you're not going to get much agreement with you here bc all your doing is basically saying "lol whatever you guys say i wont change my mind bc im right based on what i see"

that is a very very naive/elitist POV to have. all of us are more than welcome to have you prove that oscar is as good as u say he is and you are just completely unwilling to do the same despite much better/objective arguments presented for you

as far as bird vs lebron, wtf does the future matter? we're talking peak right?

agree completely with this post
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02-08-2011 , 05:11 PM
yea id be in assani
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02-08-2011 , 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis M.H.
greatest pure point guard of all time and the greatest power forward of all time along with bill russell arguably the greatest center. I could have switched him for kareem.

certainly beats team C and likely beats B and only Jordan destroying West hurts me against team A
seriously Isiah is your best pure PG of all time? I can think of 5 or 6 that I would easily pick over him.

stockton isn't a pure PG?

easily take Stockton, johnson.

I'd probably take CP3 and Nash over him and maybe Kidd.

isiah was a marginal shooter, a decent scorer and a good PG defender....but I can't really see you taking some other PGs over him.
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02-08-2011 , 05:18 PM
the myth of isiah is pretty epic at this point.
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02-08-2011 , 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0
seriously Isiah is your best pure PG of all time? I can think of 5 or 6 that I would easily pick over him.

stockton isn't a pure PG?

easily take Stockton, johnson.

I'd probably take CP3 and Nash over him and maybe Kidd.

isiah was a marginal shooter, a decent scorer and a good PG defender....but I can't really see you taking some other PGs over him.
el oh el

stockton couldn't guard me at his peak. and by johnson do you mean magic or kevin? magic isnt a pure PG and KJ was good but not good enough to be relevant to this discussion.

CP3, Nash and Kidd - 0 RANGZZZZZZZZZZZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
the myth of isiah is pretty epic at this point.
i admit that i dont know as much about the NBA as a lot of you guys so correct me if im wrong
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02-08-2011 , 05:21 PM
anyway, i initially thought he was trollling bc simmons was spouting off this isiah=best "pure point guard" (whatever the eff that means) in his recent podcast
Which of these is best basketball team? Quote
02-08-2011 , 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffRas22
also cardsman,

you're not going to get much agreement with you here bc all your doing is basically saying "lol whatever you guys say i wont change my mind bc im right based on what i see"

that is a very very naive/elitist POV to have. all of us are more than welcome to have you prove that oscar is as good as u say he is and you are just completely unwilling to do the same despite much better/objective arguments presented for you

as far as bird vs lebron, wtf does the future matter? we're talking peak right?
No more elitist than Assani telling me that my opinion is wrong because I'm not a sabermetrics guy and I don't subscribe to those theories. I've not done a ton of statistical work, you're right. I would love to be able to prove my point on this board, however, it would require obtaining the game tapes I've seen, arranging a viewing party, and having that type of discussion over a beer or two.
Which of these is best basketball team? Quote
02-08-2011 , 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
anyway, i initially thought he was trollling bc simmons was spouting off this isiah=best "pure point guard" (whatever the eff that means) in his recent podcast
i havent heard it. but is isiah that overrated?
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02-08-2011 , 05:25 PM
YES. And Stockton was a great defender.
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02-08-2011 , 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis M.H.
el oh el

stockton couldn't guard me at his peak. and by johnson do you mean magic or kevin? magic isnt a pure PG and KJ was good but not good enough to be relevant to this discussion.

CP3, Nash and Kidd - 0 RANGZZZZZZZZZZZ



i admit that i dont know as much about the NBA as a lot of you guys so correct me if im wrong
and isiah was some sort of Gary Payton / Rondo at PG D? Stockton was a pretty good defender (probably slightly above average to above average for his career WRT PGs and definitely known to be quite dirty and sneaky). stockton's career is significantly longer with a much longer sustained peak than isiah's career. the bulk stats aren't even particularly close between the two. isiah has 2 more rings on a team where he could be considered slightly better than 3-4 of the other players ont he team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...stockjo01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...thomais01.html

Career PER 21.8 vs 18.1 for Isiah despite Isiah retiring at 32 and Stockton at 40.
Career TS% is 60.8 vs 51.6% which is significantly different.
Career Win share is 207.7 vs 80.7.
Career ass% is 50.2 vs 37.4%
Career steal% is 3.2 vs 2.5%

There is really no comparison between the two players. Stockton was all nba D 5 times as well while Thomas didn't make 1 team.
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02-08-2011 , 05:27 PM
Assani just a suggestion.

How about keeping the same judges as previous and running a sim at the end? Also what do you think about adding a small monetary amount to make things more interesting and hopefully speed up the draft.

We're all gamblers here, after all.
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02-08-2011 , 05:29 PM
Isiah Thomas is legit garbage in relation to the players being discussed.
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02-08-2011 , 05:29 PM
alright. i didnt know stockton was 5x all defense 2nd team

Last edited by Francis M.H.; 02-08-2011 at 05:29 PM. Reason: flame away
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02-08-2011 , 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis M.H.
i havent heard it. but is isiah that overrated?
depends on what you value. his peak was very short, but he had some dominating playoff performances.
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02-08-2011 , 05:32 PM
Who wins, team A or this team:

Nash
Wade
Pippen
Garnett
Olajuwon
Which of these is best basketball team? Quote
02-08-2011 , 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardsman
No more elitist than Assani telling me that my opinion is wrong because I'm not a sabermetrics guy and I don't subscribe to those theories. I've not done a ton of statistical work, you're right. I would love to be able to prove my point on this board, however, it would require obtaining the game tapes I've seen, arranging a viewing party, and having that type of discussion over a beer or two.
how does that make it any better?

all he was saying was that people have put in a ton of work/research into their claims and you're disregarding them completely based on a few games you've seen.

i mean you can think O is>everyone or whatever and bird is>lebron and wilt is>>shaq but you shouldn't be super arrogant and state your claims as fact since you've done absolutely no research and are just expecting us to take ur word for it

it is what is it, it's like...your opinion man
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