You're going to have to link the study, because the only ones I've seen so far say stuff like "the number of penalties and yards called are basically the same," which absolutely has no bearing on whether those penalties were right or wrong, not to mention all the other obvious mistakes that don't happen when the professional referees are refereeing.

besides for maybe giants 49ers wild card game a few years ago. this was the most egregious end of game ruling ever tonight and im not a fan of either team.

Well, recent playoff history - 2009

We have Mike Adams of the Cardinals with a blow to the head of Rodgers creating a fumble returned for a TD in a walkoff OT win.

Guess that was less important than the Steelers superbowl with obvious block-in-the-back for a key INT TD return.

Do we have to go back to Seahawks-Steelers SuperBowl? Or, the INT call between the Steelers-Colts in the playoffs that same year?

Whitmer's spearing to the head of Pierre Thomas in last year's playoff to cause a fumble.

The list goes on and on and on... Pay attention and look for poor officials calls during the regular year as much as you do now. I've always looked for the incompetence. It's the same. The game hasn't changed, only were casual fan shines the light has changed.

BTW, the call tonight of a TD over an INT was correct. A missed PI though.

My point is, the pro refs make plenty of mistakes. Also, that I think there's a mob mentality out there now that overreacts to every single mistake made by the replacement refs.

The pro refs could have easily made the mistake tonight, not seeing clearly who had control and having to make a split-second judgement. And since, as I understand it, it can't be reversed by replay, they would have been stuck with it.

I strongly disagree so do 95 percent of america that watched the final play ruling was total bull ****

appeal to popular opinion doesn't make it right
The TD over INT was correct.
The lack of an offensive PI was not.

The thing is, it's not just about that mistake. There were multiple egregious mistakes in the fourth quarter-- the pass interference on Shields, the roughing the passer on Wilson's INT, using the K ball for the two-point conversion instead of the regular ball.

And the thing is, Green Bay can't even be that mad, because their go-ahead drive was extended on an atrocious pass interference call on Kam Chancellor, where he clearly gets there to break up the pass as the ball gets there as well, but gets called for PI anyway.

By trying to reduce it to the one call at the very end, you're oversimplifying the problem.

replacement refs have been better on PIs that regular refs throughout whole games IMO

Not a single one of those involves an official actually not knowing the rules in the ways I outlined. Officials will always miss things. I have never seen the real referees award extra challenges or timeouts because they didn't realize what the rules were, nor have I seen them mark off penalties from the wrong spot or for the wrong distance (as they did in CIN-WAS and TEN-DET this week) and not correct it almost immediately.

I asked you to find a three-week stretch as bad as this one and you come back with five calls spread out over six years.

Well, IMO YO is wrong. Pass interference calls have been much more inconsistent and mistake-filled IMO.

I'll keep backing what is right rather than what is popular

Anyone think the replacement refs could be alright once they know all the rules?

trollface.jpg

The three week stretch of playoff games culminating in the Steelers-Seahawks SuperBowl was worse iirc. Everyone had a blunder and controversy.

Might have been the Bears-Colts Super Bowl year.
Tough to remember as there are major foul-ups in nearly every game.

People just dismiss it as you cannot complain about the refs or they're right 98% of the time or some other hooey.

Now, we get to have open season on the officials. If this was the case every week, we'd see the same thing.

I was focused on that one because that's the one everyone seems to be upset about. Or almost everyone. To focus on all of them would require extensive study anyway, and not the recency bias and mob mentality that's taking place now imo.

At any rate, I'm too tired to hold up my end of the discussion right now, so I bid ya'll good night.

Final words for the night:

Here's the thing about that final play: It is possible that the refs thought Tate got the ball first and didn't have enough to overturn it. But given what we already know about the refs' sloppy knowledge of the rules (as exemplified by things like the extra SEA timeout vs ARI and the two extra challenges SF got against MIN that they shouldn't have), it just seems far more likely that they got the call wrong because they don't understand the simultaneous-possession rules.

Officials make mistakes in judgment calls. They all do. They're human. But I've never seen the real officials be as flagrantly unfamiliar with the rules as the replacement ones seem to demonstrate they are on a weekly basis.

The replacement refs certainly are under more scrutiny than the regular officials, but it also seems that on an objective level they are making mistakes that the regular officials simply do not make. This is before we even get into the subjective matters, where I still think I and most everyone who has had enough of the replacements are right, but I'm willing to allow for enough error in my perception that I might be wrong. But that's the thing-- even allowing for that, the replacement refs are making mistakes that involve not knowing the rules of the game, or getting easily verifiable information wrong, on a regular basis, in a way the regular officials never do. Like, the officials marking an extra 12 yards off against Detroit because they spotted the ball on the wrong 44-- and not correcting it when they were told they were wrong and could have easily gone to the tape to check-- is an objective fact. And something like that, or worse, has happened every week so far. This week we had three such incidents-- Washington receiving a 20-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty when no such thing exists (because Kyle Shanahan was trying to correct a referee who called for a 10-second runoff after a false start, which was wrong because the clock was stopped), Detroit's extra 12-yard penalty, and San Francisco receiving two challenges they shouldn't have-- before we even got to tonight's game.

Tonight's game is relevant because it's the big PR bomb everyone has been waiting for to drop as much as anything.

This time you're neither.

Where did ever I say the replacements weren't significantly worse? Of course they are. They're awful.

The point I was making was that the regular refs have a lot of room for improvement themselves, and that the part-timer, self-evaluation bit is a joke for a $9 billion sports league. Those positions should be highly contested and competitive, but the old school guys don't want that (not that I blame them, that's a pretty cozy setup and decent job security). The system in place made sense 50 years ago but the NFL is serious business now. People actually watch it, and players aren't making $40k and working in warehouses in the offseason. Don't just bring back the old refs and stop there.

I want the old refs back bad. But do not believe they deserve pensions because they are only part time. Even in large companys pensions are a thing of the past, and full time employees only have 401ks. What do they work two hours a week ?

that's a helluva lot more than u can get outta most US congresspersons.

old refs: gg Sea
new refs:

I just want Ed Hochuli back. Him only.

Cant stop laughing at this

I do think the replacement refs get more heat for bad calls than the regular officials do. However their game management is much poorer. Just look at the length of games. Games are easily an extra 15-20 minutes long. Also they have a huge lack of consistency. You can complain about the regular refs on things like catches, but I could sit there every Sunday see a call and know what it will be, whether I like it or not. These refs all seem to have a different view on what constitutes opinion plays.

As for the bolded it's not even close. Jennings possess the ball and Tate has a hand on the ball. Tate does not reach simultaneous possession until the way down to the ground. Tie goes to the receiver is a misnomer. The rule is that whoever gains possession first is considered the receiver.

However the regular refs could just as easily have got that call wrong.

And yes it was a clear OPI, but that often (along with DPI) goes without being called on hail mary passes.

Agree with all of this except for the Packers can't being "that mad." Totally agree that that DPI on Seattle was horsecrap, but still. The lack of OPI on the final play combined with the horrendous call on the catch literally gave Seattle the game winning TD. The DPI on Seattle earlier, while a really, really bad call, still only extended a drive.

Of the three terrible calls in the fourth quarter before the final play, I'd rank them as so in terms of their impact on the game (not ranking how bad the calls themselves were, just assuming they were all equally bad):

1) Roughing on Walden. Directly took away a turnover deep in Seattle's territory late in the game with GB up 12-7. Very, very likely would've led to at least a FG and there was a good chance, as GB's offense was pretty solid in 2nd half, that they could've scored a TD to virtually ice the game.

2) DPI on Seattle. IIRC, the Packers still weren't even in FG range after that, but the drive did end in a TD instead of ending in a punt.

3) DPI on Shields instead of OPI on Rice. Didn't result in a score, but eventually resulted in GB starting in the shadow of the goal post, which in turn gave Seattle great field position for the final drive. A correct call would've resulted in 1st and 40-something. Seattle almost certainly would've had to punt, but of course there was a chance the punter, who had been very good, would've pinned the Packers deep, anyway (and with more time on the clock).

Obviously, the combined lack of OPI and incorrect TD call on the last play was the worst, but I'm not even counting that here.