you mean randy moss lost it

Another thing that makes Brady better is the fact that he raises the level of play of those around him.

Take a look at Moss. Ok, maybe he had some physical talent, but before he got to New England, he was nothing. Traded for a 4th rounder for christ's sake. Then, Tom Brady get's ahold of him and makes him awesome (23 TDs!!!).

Meanwhile, Peyton get's gifted talent like Brandon Stokley and Pierre "Up and coming" Garcon and doesn't manage to do **** with them. Stokley goes off and becomes a great WR in Denver, but didn't amount to **** in Indy. Maybe if Brady was his QB he would've had a good year.

It's just a shame Brady got let down by Moss in that Super Bowl, or else he'd have made my top tier (the Montana/Bradshaw level). While Peyton's busy choking all by himself, Brady is being let down by other players, sucks to be him (well as much as it can suck to be a 3 ring having GOAT).

Well said except for the part where u mysteriously left out Marvin Harrison/Reggie Wayne/Dallas Clark

wat

It doesn't take any skill to get great players (Harrison, Wayne, Clark) and make them good, the skill is in making bad players better, which is what I said.

Brady took a scrub like Moss and made him a star. What did Moss do before Brady, nothing. What has he done after? Nothing (except be on waivers a lot).

Meanwhile, Manning has had a bunch of average players (like Stokley, Garcon, Jacob Tamme, etc) and what has he done with them? Nothing.

Brady makes average players better, Manning just ignores them.

lol, Tanner.

I want to see an Epi/Goodie vs. RT/Shipontilt tag-team cage-match.

I would pick up the tab just to listen to Richard Tanner and KB4Z sit at a bar and debate this.

for the record brady>manning but seriously... your trying to say moss wasnt elite before he got to NE? i mean really? moss is (well, he was obv) better than anyone the colts have had, ever.

It's great that you think that, but show your work.

Moss before Brady=meh
Moss with Brady=23 TDs, NFL Record
Moss after Brady=nothing

QED

Actionjacson,

Richard Tanner is trolling, pretty sad really. Anyway Moss was obviously not a scrub but Brady had peak Moss for like half a year before he started to decline. Moss really declined even harder 2 years later and 1 of those years Brady was hurt.

Manning had Harrison for almost marvin's entire career. He also had reggie wayne/dallas clark for all their careers.

Every single post from RT is him favoring Peyton and declaring him the undisputed GOAT... he has leveled a bunch of high-volume posters ITT. And prohorn, RT and KB4Z have fought a lot but something more high-profile would be fun. Even Assani has claimed we can't prove this.

Not true. Most of my posts are mocking the "Brady is clutch/RANNNNGGGGZZZZZ" side. I have no issue (other than disagreement) with the "Brady is better" side.

KB4Z is cool in my book.

What can I say, it's a talent. Still, considering that Epip is just leveling, I think my real skill is re-leveling, that's where the real money's at.

High profile? Stats and data-based argument stopped 3 pages ago, now it's all about the RANGZZZZZ and Peyton's level of choke

Well, we sorta can. I mean, we can't know definitively I suppose, but we can measure it pretty well.

On one side we have every statistical measuring device, and on the other we have RANGZ and Clutchness.

Maybe we should have a series of debates in SE, first we'll do climate change, then evolution vs. ID, then Brady vs. Manning.

As a Brady/Patriot's fan, before this year, I always felt that Peyton had the edge over Brady. The question I always asked myself was if I were starting a team, who would I draft, Manning or Brady and always honestly had to say Manning. Also, the only team that would scare the **** out of me before we had to play them, either in the regular season or the playoffs was Manning's Colts.

Having said all that, with the year Brady is having this year, it's a lot closer and I would put them as equals, not equals this year necessarily, but equal over the totality of their careers.

And having said that, going into these playoffs, Manning is the only one in the AFC conference that really scares me.

I'm a big fan of both QBs(although I hate the Pats), and I've read the whole thread. I think its super close, and I think both sides have very reasonable points. The only thing I'm sure of is that anyone who thinks one argument is "hilarious" or that its not even close is either biased or really really bad at evaluating QBs.

For years people said that Manning put up great stats because he had one of the best WRs of all time, whereas Brady had nothing. And what happened? When Brady got Moss, his stats were as good as Manning's! I think thats a legit argument. I also think the dome vs playing outdoors is a legit argument. I also think football is incredibly difficult to evaluate and we are probably overlooking several important things when evaluating both players.

Basically I just don't see how anyone can be so confident that one is better than the other. I know this is the internet where winning the debate takes prescedent over finding objective truth, but people are just too emotionally tied up in this debate imo, and neither side seems willing to objectively consider what the other side is saying at all.

+1 Worst analogy ever. Perhaps vhawk01 is trolling as he's usually not this ******ed.

If there was some way of accurately and precisely ranking Manning/Brady then the final score may well end up as 349-347 (for whoever) which is too close to call with any confidence. I hope this doen't stop anyone as some of the comments ITT are most amusing.

Wait, people think Santana Moss wasn't great before 2007? lol

Pretty much this. Anyone that wants to have an argument about this should really read this post first.

I know Victor thinks that Brady is somehow a "system QB" and I was curious about something. What examples can people give of QB's that are truly "systems QB's"? What QB's have had great success within one system and then fell flat on their face in another system?

I think Eagles qbs are system qbs. Not surpised donovan sucked in Washington. All of the eagles backups have looked great and then sucked elsewhere (like aj feeley)

i think hes a system QB in the same sense epi thinks manning is a choker.

also in the same way that brady slurpers absolutely get off on denigrating all the talent around him, esp in comparison to mannings wr, yet never mention that brady has played for the goat coach while manning has played for morons that actively hurt the team (remember dungy refused to challenge for like 5 yrs?)

It is pretty close as to whether Manning > Brady with the way their careers have gone, but imagine if Manning had Belicheck his whole career? That is a pretty strong argument in Manning's favor.. Who knows how many rangz they would have won together.

Zero, probably. Because Manning would choke away the great situations Belicheat put him in.

/epi

Manning's stats would probably be about the same, but the defenses would have been a lot better since Belichik could just let manning run the offense and he could put all his effort into the defense.