Wait what, didn't I already debunk this?

Also, this is kind of Thayer's point? I don't get why y'all are so stubborn and hellbent on "winning" rather than trying to understand. Thayer isn't arguing against the position that Kyrie is a good (or very good player). What he's arguing against is the idea that the difference between Boston this year and last year is trading Isaiah Thomas & Jae Crowder for Kyrie Irving. Given you think it makes perfect sense that the Celtics play very well with Kyrie on the bench it sounds like you agree.

While CTG is up, a look at DSJR who is sort of divisive:

On/Off

- A -6.4 per 100 differential, which puts him in the bottom quarter of the league.
- Surprisingly already a seemingly positive offensive player for the Mavs. They shoot more efficiently, turn it over less, and outscore non DSJR units per 100 with him on the floor.
- A total disaster on defense. Opponent eFG goes up and opponents turn it over much less. This should be a recurring problem for DSJR as he's just small with no length.

Misc:

- Team skyrockets to near league best in putbacks when he's on the floor. This is for obvious reasons and probably the driving factor for the team's +EFG when he's on the floor vs off.
- For someone in the top 10% of shots at rim for a PG, he's not drawing nearly enough fouls, being near or below league average in those categories.
- 26% of his FGA are 2pt shots not at the rim, a # that need to come way down.
- He obviously needs to improve shooting overall. Poor 3pt and FT shooter

I'd say the goods are: he's already showing the ability to be a positive offensive player while creating his own shots largely.

Negatives are: Pretty bad on defense (not a big deal for rookie PG, but might just be concerned in general going forward due to size), doesn't draw nearly enough fouls for his shot profile, cannot shoot yet

Jae Crowder was top 20th in RPM last year and IT was 59th.

Kyrie is 8th itl this year.

Seems like by your guys logic Kyrie>>IT+Crowder

CVig,

I know you like to laugh at RPM all the time, but you do realize you've repeatedly shown in your evaluations a convoluted way of mentally projecting RPM, right? There's a stat for that.

They haven't been better. They weren't even better when you said it. Your insane love for bref sorting even in the face of objectively better data makes me think you are just not smart or the most stubborn person of all time.

BTW, Kyrie is a + on your system of choice now too.

Anyway, I showed you why you were wrong when you said it, I don't need to rehash all that again. It's just been a brutal week.

You idiot. Some of us like to look at what makes up a player rather than blindly sorting.

Ugh now the good Rasbro has to defend his brother's honor, I'm out. You guys just can post all day long again.

Thayer, This is exhausting and it seems like everyone is kind of letting you know yet you won't go away

if there's a deep dive i would want to see done, it's explaining why crowder is sucking on cleveland after being such a goldmine in boston. that's one L i guess i'd have to take, because i thought crowder would be the best piece in the trade for this season specifically.

i guess it goes back to surrounding talent and partially cavs PG situation but it's gotta be more than that.

Geoff,

They weren't even better with Kyrie off when he said it outside of this system he just loves to sort by. Why wouldn't you prefer one that removed garbage time? I showed that a Net Rating with garbage time removal clearly showed Kyrie was a + then and now.

Best answer to me is "it's been 17 games and he's playing in a new system". That **** always takes time. He's still good imo

Players like Crowder are incredibly dependent on their surroundings. Its the same reason why guys like Covington and Otto Porter arent actually elite players.

An elite player will be elite in any an all situations.

Great role players often will be very valueable in optimal conditions, but too often people itt get enamored with what seems like their true production in those conditions and don't give enough credit to the players (or brad/pops) who are actually more responsible for it.

Also, the NBA is a MoML.

Anyway the fact that RasBros Inc. are here doing mental gymnastics to try to discredit Kyrie in any way they can while he sits in 8th in RPM hours after they called RPM a perfect descriptor of what has occured is exactly what ive been talking about.


When RPM agrees with bias RPM GOAT. When it doesnt it gets ignored in favor of raw on/off or whatever else is needed to confirm .

Re: Changes in Kyrie and Lebron's RPM so far this year:

Remember RPM is a descriptive stat that shows how a player impacts his team given his role and coaching.

Kyrie has been Kyrie + a non idiot coach for the 1st time in his life(which is obviously predictably pretty sweet)

Lebron's role is ill-suited to bad shooters and bad defenders, and playing with Rose/Wade/Shumpert has really hurt his effectiveness. There's also been a bit of run bad/noise with the 3pt shooting. Smiff has been shooting 30%

Wait, what? I think Kyrie is really good. I don't agree with Thayer about Kyrie, I was merely trying to make it more clear so this thread was less AIDS. My stance is Kyrie is a really good player, still not sure it was a good trade for the Celtics bc of the existence of the Warriors (and LeBron).

Top picks from 2013 their 1st season

https://www.basketball-reference.com...elne01&y6=2015


Top picks from 2013 this season(Trey Burkes is last season)

https://www.basketball-reference.com...elne01&y6=2018

been thinking this for a while.

My point is just when Thayer said they were better it wasn't even true objectively. It was just true on a very very flawed metric that's been at least partially solved for.

What is actually more AIDS and trying to solve for by going through this admittedly also AIDS convo is the constant sorting exercise that repeatedly takes place to evaluate players. It's worse than the PER sorting of 08-10 which strangely enough a certain someone was also obsessed with.

We're at a point where people are actually posting 'lol at these player evaluations that RPM just solves for' instead of actually trying to look @ what a player is doing well or poorly as the context of performance. That is actual AIDS

Just stop posting, seriously.

I don't agree with Wooderson about what he thinks Thayer thinks of Kyrie, but he's been nowhere close to as responsible for their start as people think he is.

Like your asinine contradictions arent even like weeks apart. You're contradicting yourself nearly hourly. Give it a rest, not everyone is cut out for NBAing.

Also, this is ANOTHER ninja edit

Re: Creating an insufferable environment that's not conducive for discussion,


It's not me it's you.

So telling people lol @ player evaluations when a stat exists, ninja editing posts constantly so replies don't make sense, and just attacking posters you don't like until they say something about it IS conducive to good discussion.

OK got it, will go away and let you be tastemaker again

CVig,

Your usage of CTG and stubborn refusal to acknowledge RPM as a useful stat is hilarious, as CTG is just a less fine version of RPM.

uh, what? Tatum is just better than those two, regardless of IT or Kyrie. He's just better at the sport of basketball.