I'm legit surprised Leonard won DPOY. I mean, he's a great defender, but I thought at least two other guys would win it before him.

What does free throw shooting have to do with Defense?


Wtf

wtf is this

LOL Moni

Why do you think DEFENSIVE player of the year votes would not ignore offense?

Who cares about overall value? This is about Defense only

We have MVP, MIP, all-NBA teams, etc for overall value

Maybe it's your wording, but do you really think wing defense is considerably more valuable than rim protection?

It's pretty crazy that Duncan never won DPOY.

Not saying he got robbed any particular year or he should've been given the award one time as a career achievement. Just commenting on how crazy it is that he's #2 all-time in DWS and never won the award. His prime coinciding with KG/Ben Wallace obv didn't help.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...dan-is-futile/

the article is almost exactly a year old but relevant, very little has changed in those numbers. Hacking DAJ is basically 0EV in terms of immediate point value, and considering how tired the Spurs (specially Duncan) were last night, I think it makes perfect sense to trade some fouls for a little rest. Apparently some people very strongly disagree

He was a seven-time first team All-Defensive player, never finished higher than 3rd in DPOY voting, and there were a couple of seasons were he was first team and didn't receive any DPOY voting. He was also blocked by Mutumbo/Mourning.

The #3 and #4 active players in career DWS (#26 and #27 overall) have never been named first or second team All-Defensive. Who can guess who they are without looking?

when you are so bad at free throw shooting that the other team would rather foul you than let your team have a normal offensive position it has to affect your defensive rating

i'm not saying Jordan isn't a good defender, he is.. but you can't be in the category of a truly elite defensive player when your coach can't even play you on defense in certain situations because of the hack-and-shaq situation

lol @ a stats-obsessed forum not being able to understand this point

good link xposted

it does seem difficult to qualify exactly how big of a cost the bad free throws are

jordan was 6/17 at the line last night - league average is ~80%

mitigating factors are clippers being 'good rebounders' of his free throws and that the cumulative amounts of fouls still matters (that clips lost this in OT with the foul situation was even worse) and 'failed fouls'

i'm curious to see how many posters agree or disagree with the 0EV calculation

another counter-mitigating factor is that offensive pace and flexibility still matters very much from a coaching perspective - that your team can be locked into 0EV trading still has to be a negative.. also the rest factor Fallen metioned

EV in a vacuum isn't sufficient to judge the appropriateness. I think everyone appreciates this which is why these discussions should be more situational.

why? no. if anything it makes u want to play harden on D

Sure, but it's important to at least have an idea of what the ballpark figure is, in this case we can be pretty sure it won't be a horrible mistake to do it, or a horrible oversight to not do it.

1. Brad hack-a-shaqing a 64% FT shooter in the first quarter of a playoff game...

can't be an elite defender if you suck at an offensive part of the game

got it

Literally dumbest thing said in a thread that has had Trollstoy posting in it all year.

Lol moni

The one time that hacking should 100% be used is at the end of the first three quarters to get 2 for 1s.

I'm generally not a fan unless your defense is struggling. There was a game at the end of the season, and I can't remember what teams played off the top of my head, but one team hacked on 4-5 consecutive possessions while the opposing offense was really struggling to get good looks offensively. Doing it in those spots is certainly -EV

Strictly going by "long career, not thought of that highly defensively" I'll say

Wade
Bosh

EDIT: Cheated. WHOA at #4 never making any All-Defense team.

i feel like most improved shouldn't go to sophomores, they are always going to take massive leaps even if gobert's was more massive than most. jimmy butler basically fits the bill to me as does dray green

personally i'd give it to butler

agreed, after the top few outlier elite guys that you probably can separate a bit, it's a super hazy curve where context is gonna affect value significantly. i think most people in tz basically understand this but RANKINGS are fun

Interesting career ws stats. Raptors have zero players in the active top 100. I wonder how much of an effect these types of players, even past their prime would have on team defence.

I would guess it would be noticeable

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Yeah truly dumbest thing by a pretty good amount. It's impressive. Would be a brilliant troll but clearly isn't.

i'm surprised lowry isn't top 100

is something wrong with him? he looks bad and has been playing bad for a while

Wade is a three-time All-Defensive second teaser.

I understand the free throw defense argument, especially in regards to the hackaJordan strategy. It keeps him off the floor/costs the team tremendous amounts of value in crucial moments, especially when ahead and needing to hold a lead.