Dray's value is really hard to pin down. Hard to say how much playing with those elite guards helps him vs. How much he helps create the environment that allows them to thrive. I think I prefer Jimmy slightly due to ftR and %.

DeMarre is older but is another one. I'd rather have DMC at 9 million than Khris for 15

I think preferring Dray to Middleton or Butler is pretty crazy and underrates just how easy Dray's role is on offense with Steph doin what he does. I mean Dray's good/great, prob worth a max, but I still think it's possible he just is in a system that hides his offensive flaws perfectly.

I'm not up to date on who has cap space but a Dray max could be a disaster for alot of teams. Wouldn't want the Knicks to get him for example, they're way too far away from being good and he's not going to be nearly as helpful on a bad team.

Is there a statistical argument for Wes being better than either this year? Seems like everything I look at favors those two over him.



I think they'd both be great deals that I'd be really happy with. If you take the most likely ways their careers pan out then I'd most likely agree with you that DeMarre's offers better value. But in real life I'd take Khris b/c he is only 23, is making big leaps, and we don't know when he'll stop taking those leaps. Some % of the time he just keeps improving and improving in each of the next 4 or 5 seasons. Alongside a Giannis/Jabari core, I think Khris is clearly the play. Alongside a Teague/Korver/Millsap/Horford core I think its a 50/50 decision.

He's also been maybe the best defender in the league this year and he plays a more valuable position defensively. He's not going to create much offense, but he's also the type of guy you can put in any offense and he can fit in and play within the offense in a positive way.

What do you have with Jimmy Butler? A guy who can be a really good defender on very low usage (at a less valuable position) or a guy who can be a neutral defender on above-average usage (21% this year).

I prefer Draymond Green for the Pistons all day.

Agree, but I think a Butler max or a Middleton max for someone like that would be bad too. These are guys you want to plug into a team who has a solid core and cap space. They shouldn't be the guy that you build everything else around.

Do people think that a guy like Dray/Mids/Butler can ever be more than the 3rd best player on a title team? Or do people consider Dray the second best player on GSW right now? (I don't)

He's 3rd.

But he's still top ~30 player.

Dray for the Spurs would be amazing

I wasn't thinking of anybody
More amazed that their aren't that many, and no superstar ones.

With all the analytics out on spacing showing that you want only one of your guys to play at the rim and not shoot on offense, (your center usually) you would think they're would be more . I guess ilbaka shoots 3s well ?

Ibaka shoots 3.2 3s per game

I think people saying Dray > Butler are downplaying Butler's significance to the Bulls. Him and Pau have pretty much carried the Bulls offensively, and I'm not convinced that Dray could do that.

Shouldn't be surprising to anyone but Dray gets assisted on >80% of his shots.

I agree that we should give Butler more credit for actually carrying an offensive load and playing regularly next to libabilities some of them having big leaks whereas Dray is surrounded by 3point shooters and has one if not of the best interior defender.

If i'm comparing two players I will always weigh in based on the system they were in. Basically the better your system is the least credit you should get. probably why at this point hawks players are starting to reach overrated territory and also why average players go from somewhere to the spurs and become very positive players.

Wait, do we think DMC at $9M is a thing?

Damn, Bud should get a cut from his players' agents. That's more money on a per year basis than he will have made in his entire 6 year career up to that point.

Lebron, Durant, and Melo have all played a bunch of smallball 4, tho. Dirk was a superstar until like a year or two ago. Love could be considered a superstar too.

Well, in a world where we are taking Jimmy Butler off the 2014-2015 Bulls and only trying to maximize their offensive output, then sure Jimmy Butler is better at that than Draymond Green. Of course, that ignores all kinds of other things that go into evaluating players. Like the fact that Jimmy Butler is apparently carrying his team's offense with a 21% usage and that the Bulls real problem has been defensively where Butler hasn't been good.

I disagree with you about Butler. I think he's a fine guy to build around. But yeah you're mostly right and that's the reason I don't think of a guy like Khris as a snap max.

There's a few situations where it'd be fine to max him but most teams shouldn't.

DMC's career is a good marker for all the guys writing off rookies and second year guys. Carroll was a scrub until he was 26, like a below replacement level trainwreck, and it took him until his 4th team to settle into his role.


OTOH, that's exactly why I wouldn't give him a big contract. He's a role player in a great system, other guys could do what he does.

I mean, people wouldn't have said you could be a legit title contender if your best player was Al Horford/Jeff Teague/Paul Millsap, but here we are and the Hawks are real contenders and one of those guys is the best player on the team.

Do we really think Dray/Butler/Midds have any shot of leaving their current teams? They all have a decent amount of maneuverability to keep those guys, and at the very most will spend one year of luxury tax if necessary. I think CHI might be into the repeater tax but they can make a couple consolidations in order to keep Jimmy.

I think tying up your $$$ for 3 days when they are obviously going to get matched might be a mistake if you have that kind of cap space lying around.

DMC, Millsap, Danny Green, W3S, ROLO, BWright, Sweet Lou, those are some guys I think can be gotten and it'll be interesting to see how much they go for.

this is pretty silly- i don't think anyone disagrees that a team with Butler/Middleton/Dray at the 2/3/4, Bud coaching, positive players at the other two positions and a + bench is a title contender. the problem is when you max one of these guys it is harder to get the other guys. who knows though, maybe Khris' agent is his uncle who also happens to be terrible at his job.

I wouldn't think so but wouldn't bet against Bulls being pathetically cheap. I also don't think GSW would match a max for Dray but I also don't think anyone will offer one so he'll probably stay.

Wes's off-season will be interesting. I would tend to wager against him being within 90% of his current production ever again, but he's also not very old and his game isn't heavily predicated on athleticism.