Where does Pippen rank with the best sf of all time? Top 5 for sure right? Top 3 maybe?


Bird
Baylor
Pippen?

btw, anthony parker apm all star had 6, 3 and 2 on 2-7 for +23.

hah well his +/- being the 7 points better than james despite them playing the same # of minutes and him accounting for a lot less offense says quite a bit about +/-

lol, no.

LOL

I watched 48 minutes of Cavs vs. Boston. Zydrunas looked completely useless out there. He couldn't move. He couldn't rebound. He couldn't defend. He wasn't hitting his outside shot.

I watched maybe 15ish minutes tonight. They blew the game open with Shaq on the court. Then Zydrunas came in and they were barely a better team. He cant defend anyone at this point.

Ask anyone that has watched over 60 minutes* of Cavs basketball. They will all prefer Shaq because he is flat out better on both sides of the ball.

-----------------------------
*60 minutes isn't a significant sample to prove anything, but considering you were freaking out over two games as if it meant everything in the world, maybe this will mean something to you.

yay, tarheels gets jokes.

Why can't it mean that Parker contributed more in this game? Over the course of the season, LeBron's +/- will vastly eclipse Parker's, but that doesn't mean Parker can't have a better game than LeBron.

To me, +/- doesn't measure how good a player is, but it does do a pretty good job of measuring how effective he was.

you're joking, but there are people who think anthony parker is a stud or something

it's possible but it's not likely. reason being that i think anyone would agree that we could remove parker's contributions from this game and the result would still be a comfortable win for the cavs, while the same is obv not true for james

lol @ bobbo-- so since lakers played one bad game, they are now lucky they won last year and laker fans have no clue how lucky the lakers were? GTFO

I mean really who was going to beat them

is probably a much better question.

z and shaq both played horrid vs the celts. i dont see how you can only consider that a negative on z.

as for your last point, yes i am freakin out about the first 2 games but you are missing my point. it was to the point, and i clarified later on, yet ppl still misinterpret. the cavs are not an all time great team. i thought they had a very good chance at that. they are no longer favorites to win 61.5. i thought they had a great chance at that.

this is disappointing. esp when considering last year.

instead of a high 60 to low 70 win team, with a very good chance at the title and all time greatness, they are a mid 50 win team that will require some luck and lebron godmode to win it.

i dont think i am out of line in being upset about this.

Ok. I'm not wrong, but as a Cleveland fan overreacting to a 0-2 start, you're entitled to your misguided opinion.

Exactly. I actually don't think "a lot" is fair. But simply "better" works.

I mean, I watch a ton of Cleveland games too. Mainly to root for them to fail.

Was Baylor even a SF? Pippen was the best SF of the 90s, that much is clear. He's top 5, but "positions" have changed quite a bit over the past 50 years.

First off, you guys are all citing game-to-game +/-, or simply, "unadjusted +/-".
Second off, Anthony Parker is a very good defender. If +/- was a boxscore stat, then it would be a boxscore stat. It's NOT a boxscore stat. Accept that.

Hmm, it doesn't say a lot of about +/- at all. If he consistently pulls in performances > LeBron, it WOULD mean something. Ie. if the Cavs on/off with Lebron would be less severe then Parker, maybe Parker should be winning a MVP. But frankly it's more likely after the season James, once again, will have the largest differential as well as +/-, since he's way the best player in the game.

Although I LOVE 1 game +/-, it really doesn't mean much at all.

Exactly.

They were lucky Mr. Garnett was not playing. Otherwise, it would be the Celtics gunning for a 3peat this year.

Z being better than Shaq is probably the most LOL thing in this thread so far.

again, possible but not likely. see, i'm disagreeing that a better +/- necessarily even means he was more effective. if we take out lebron's contribution and replace it w/random player x they lose way more often than if we do the same w/parker. too much covariance going on to isolate it by just comparing the numbers straight up, and obv the sample size as you have noted

no........and no to celtics beating them TWICE give me a break

Dirkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.

Mavssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

ok fair enough what if he had won the title the year Jordan was out of the NBA. Top 5 then?

Pippen's #'s that year were pretty sick...

22 ppg 8.7 rpg 5.6 dimes 2.9 steal 0.8 blocks

Plus he was one of the best perimeter defenders evah which I think is undervalued.


obviously LBJ will be #1 in the end if he can win some titles.

I think I disagree if I understand what you're saying (I might not be).

It's HIGHLY unlikely, in fact just about impossible, that Parker's APM at the end of the season ends up being better than LeBron's. However, if this somehow was the case, I would def have some thoughts about Parker being more valuable to his team for some reason. I think +/- numbers are a lot more important for judging teammates than it is for comparing players on different teams.

just finished the Cs, starting the Lakers game, but might skip some of it. Just a couple of quick thoughts:

Cs are scary good

Rondo is a stud

I'm not in love with this Bulls team, mainly because of the wings, and TT sucks. I think Rose is overrated (granted he's hurt), Salmons is blah, Deng doesn't seem there yet, and Pargo is woeful. However, Noah and Miller are great, and Heinrich is awesome. He might be their best player. He's just always making the right play it seems.

i still fail to see how i overreacted to the cavs opening games. i expected this team to be one of the best of all time. they are not. that is disappointing.

if you want to criticize me, then criticize my expectations of team that won 66 games, had a great pd, picked up an alleged great center and has the best player in the game.

for this team not to be the favorite is a huge disappointment. its that simple.

expectations. disappointment.

Nobody is going to argue this, but it's pretty irrelevant. In baseball this would matter, but the way basketball works, Parker is a different player when he's on the court with LeBron than he is without him. Anthony Parker is never going to be better at basketball than LeBron James, but he's also never going to have a better APM for the season so this is a silly debate.

Can't put anyone in the top five who bitches out on his team during the most important play of the entire season when he is their best player. Plus his face looks like it got smashed by an anvil.

22 ppg 8.7 rpg 5.6 dimes 2.9 steals 0.8 blocks is worthless from the bench.