NBA Season Thread 2009-2010 - Page 2433 - Sporting Events and Fantasy Sports

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02-12-2010 , 11:21 AM

#60801

Dschmeidreu

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I mean I just don't even know what to say if you think Lebron has a greater impact on D than Jordan did, I just don't.

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02-12-2010 , 11:22 AM

#60802

Dschmeidreu

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Originally Posted by Schwallie

Just listed them wrong. I've always listed assists 2nd

I know, just wanted to point it out

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02-12-2010 , 11:23 AM

#60803

Schwallie

formerly TheProdigy

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 10,234

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dschmeidreu

I mean I just don't even know what to say if you think Lebron has a greater impact on D than Jordan did, I just don't.

Why can't you realize you're extremely anti-LBJ and the people who are neutral on him are all arguing for LBJ. Its the same as Kobe arguments. I'm naturally low on Kobe, but if everyone who was neutral said something about his play, I'd pretty much believe it. I realize I'm anti-Kobe and underrate him.

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02-12-2010 , 11:24 AM

#60804

IrishHand

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MEbenhoe

Lebron is just as efficient this season as MJ was in his 32/8/8 season, and is putting up pretty similar stats offensively. Essentially it breaks down to that Lebron is putting up incredibly similar offensive seasons the past two years as MJ did in his prime, while having more of a defensive impact than MJ did during those years.

The bolded parts presuppose that everything else was equal - primarily overall NBA offense/defense balance - which is false. I suspect that if you look at leaguewide stat breakdowns for the Jordan era and the current era, you'll see some differences which may help add context to the debate.

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02-12-2010 , 11:25 AM

#60805

BobboFitos

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Originally Posted by kidcolin

drexler's another guy that seems underrated by history

and we all know labron is the goat. obv not career wise, but dayum.

oh come on. dude is lauded far and wide. dude was a very good player, technically great, but:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tevi01&y4=2010

he's in the pierce/ray allen class of players. which is defo HoFer, but i mean the gap between he and kobe or mj etc is just still pretty wide.

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02-12-2010 , 11:27 AM

#60806

Schwallie

formerly TheProdigy

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 10,234

I DO NOT WANT RIP HAMILTON. AT ALL.

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02-12-2010 , 11:28 AM

#60807

MEb

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishHand

From this perspective, wouldn't Wilt be the GOAT then?

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02-12-2010 , 11:29 AM

#60808

BobboFitos

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Strongsville

lebron will get the MVP for the next 10 years because no one else is close. kobe is on the out already.

i also personally don't like comparing championships although it's hard not to. you're comparing teams at that point, not players.

i think over the next 10 years cp3, KD, and dwight will probably all win 1 mvp. some of it could be lebron having an off year/getting injured, some of it could be 1 of those guys putting up their best year ever, and the other will be the karl malone/charles barkley "pity" type vote where they get tired of handing it out to the best player in the world.

that said, i personally think lebron will win more than 5 mvps in his career. (has 1, almost a lock this year, so 3 in the next decade seems right)

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02-12-2010 , 11:32 AM

#60809

BobboFitos

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty

lol ran hot but somehow never went to 7 games in finals and only saw 7 games in conf finals once (the last year).

clark, i know youre not dumb, so:
if their "expectation" was say, winning each of those series 90% of the time (which it wasn't, frankly) then to win 6, they're running hot. in fact, their expectation over that time would be about 5.5 titles, so to actually win all 6, is running hot.

more likely they "should" have won just over 4, like 4.5. over that time either the suns, jazz, knicks, or sonics should have won 1.

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02-12-2010 , 11:38 AM

#60810

MEb

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Jordan after his age 25 season: 1 MVP, 1 ROY, 2 All-NBA Defensive 1st teams, 4 All-NBA teams, 0 titles

Lebron after his age 25 season this year will have: 2 MVPs, 1 Roy, 2 All-NBA Defensive 1st teams, 6 All-NBA teams, possibly 1 title

So he's going to have matched or exceeded in every way in terms of honors where Jordan was at this age.

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02-12-2010 , 11:38 AM

#60811

BobboFitos

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ClarkNasty

lol ol ol llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllol.

The Jazz team they beat twice was one of the best of all time. Same with the Sonics. The Phoenix and Portland teams they beat were better than either finals team last year. The worst team they played in the finals was the Lakers with Magic, and even they weren't "bad" by any stretch.

The NBA was absolutely watered down *after* Jordan left. It was very much a changing of the guard as an entire generation basically got old all at once, and the new generation wasn't yet ready. I'd say it wasn't until the 2nd and 3rd Lakers title where they had to beat Portland and Sacramento, that the NBA really recovered.

/ old man perspective

i pretty much agree with this, actually. the bulls path to the finals/the finals itself had barely any cakewalks. ~3or4 of their titles came against teams that would be the definitive favorite in nearly any finals in any other era. some of the eastern teams they faced off against (early years cavs, later years knicks) were teams that again were very good teams.

i dont think the nba was watered down after jordan left, though...

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02-12-2010 , 11:41 AM

#60812

BobboFitos

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Originally Posted by EYESCREW

Clark, to say the two Jazz championship teams are some of the best of all time is quiiiiite a stretch imo. They'd have no shot against the Showtime era Lakers and Celtics. The early 80's 76er team that won a 'ship with Moses Malone was also better. I'd also give the nod to the Bad Boy era Pistons and the mid 90's Rockets teams. I'm not saying those Jazz teams weren't good. I saw them kick the Lakers ass in the playoffs two years in a row but to say they were one of the greatest teams of all time is really pushing it a bit imo.

And obviously I shouldn't have to mention the Bulls teams that defeated the Jazz 2x in the Finals. That's a given.

see, i dont agree. those jazz teams are criminally underrated. also, the 84/86 celtics team was another GOAT type team. that jazz team wouldve had a very strong chance against all of them, really.

i just feel the need to repeat the fact the 2nd trifecta for the bulls was the GTOAT. (greatest team of all time) like, that team would smash any other. the fact the jazz did as well as they did is a testament to their goodness.

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edit: as a basketball fan we really got unlucky not getting to see a Jordan led Bulls team match up with the Rockets in the NBA Finals in the mid 90's. Those would have been the best series of the decade imo. The Bulls would have probably still won but it would have been interesting to see how they dealt with Olajuwon.

nah, bulls wouldva smashed them. that rockets team was inferior to a lot of other mid 90s western conference teams. in fact, they got vvv lucky. **** houston.

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02-12-2010 , 11:41 AM

#60813

NameOnTheCake

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishHand

Well...this rebounding this is similar to the situation that Kidd's had his whole career. Yes, agree 100% that a significant chunk of his defensive boards are the semi-uncontested d-rebs that typically go to whatever big is anchored to the paint area (I call this man the Murphy, in honor of Troy, who's built his career around this). However, I think there is probably some value in having your best creator and transition player get the defensive rebound. LeBron's going to do more in the first 2-3 seconds of the possession than Shaq will.

agree, Lebron is so so so so so so so so good at starting the break

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dschmeidreu

I mean I just don't even know what to say if you think Lebron has a greater impact on D than Jordan did, I just don't.

I was the biggest MJ fanboy in the 90's, watched as many games as was possible, etc. Lebron is just bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic. He can literally guard any position on the floor. Lebron peak > MJ peak.

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02-12-2010 , 11:41 AM

#60814

NameOnTheCake

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although he's obv more Magic than he his MJ

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02-12-2010 , 11:42 AM

#60815

BobboFitos

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Originally Posted by TimmayB

Close to 100% imo. Prolly one of the reasons that Jazz team is so underrated. The Bulls during their peak were that good.

fwiw vegas lines during that time had bulls as ~3:1 favorites. which means it's almost a flip the jazz win ONCE.

i made up the 3:1 but that just proves how hard it is to be 100% to win 2 vs another great team.

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02-12-2010 , 11:45 AM

#60816

Dschmeidreu

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MEbenhoe

Jordan after his age 25 season: 1 MVP, 1 ROY, 2 All-NBA Defensive 1st teams, 4 All-NBA teams, 0 titles

Lebron after his age 25 season this year will have: 2 MVPs, 1 Roy, 2 All-NBA Defensive 1st teams, 6 All-NBA teams, possibly 1 title

So he's going to have matched or exceeded in every way in terms of honors where Jordan was at this age.

Ok I know I'm missing something very very obvious here that you did, but I just don't see it. Honestly not trolling, just don't get bolded because it obviously isn't true? Born in 1963, drafted by bulls in 1984.....so clearly you can't be referring to post 1988....I now THINK i know what you did here, but the #'s still don't match up so please explain

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02-12-2010 , 11:46 AM

#60817

BobboFitos

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MEbenhoe

Lebron is just as efficient this season as MJ was in his 32/8/8 season, and is putting up pretty similar stats offensively. Essentially it breaks down to that Lebron is putting up incredibly similar offensive seasons the past two years as MJ did in his prime, while having more of a defensive impact than MJ did during those years.

you do know MJ was an all time great defender, right?

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02-12-2010 , 11:47 AM

#60818

MEb

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BobboFitos

you do know MJ was an all time great defender, right?

You do know LBJ is too right?

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02-12-2010 , 11:48 AM

#60819

sportsjefe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dschmeidreu

I think he meant to say 'Jordan by the age of 25 had etc etc.' whereas Lebron by the age of 25 will have etc etc. considering his 'age of 25' season isn't finished yet.

Last edited by sportsjefe; 02-12-2010 at 11:50 AM. Reason: wrong emphahis, i think

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02-12-2010 , 11:49 AM

#60820

MEb

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dschmeidreu

It was when both of them are 25. When you consider the years that Jordan missed due to baseball, its likely that Lebron will end his career with more honors, especially individually than MJ. That's the only point I was trying to make there.

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02-12-2010 , 11:50 AM

#60821

IrishHand

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MEbenhoe

From this perspective, wouldn't Wilt be the GOAT then?

Why? Because Wilt more clearly outperformed his peers? That wasn't what I was getting at...

My point was more related to the fact that offenses played very differently in the Jordan era than they do now, and the rules were different in a pretty significant way (three-point line, hand-checking, etc).

It's really easy to say "LBJ is more efficient than Jordan!" when you're basically not comparing similar stats.

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02-12-2010 , 11:50 AM

#60822

Speel Posher

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Originally Posted by NameOnTheCake

agree, Lebron is so so so so so so so so good at starting the break

I was the biggest MJ fanboy in the 90's, watched as many games as was possible, etc. Lebron is just bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic. He can literally guard any position on the floor. Lebron peak > MJ peak.

pretty much this. i loved mj as a kid, but if lebron can stay healthy and doesnt take years off to go play badminton or football, his career could rival jordan's. i doubt he wins as many 'ships but the mvps, all defense, etc will rival jordan's. offensively they are close, but lebron is such a versatile defender.

edit: was going to talk about how a point for jordan will be the rules change, but couldnt articulate it well enough

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02-12-2010 , 11:50 AM

#60823

BobboFitos

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MEbenhoe

You do know LBJ is too right?

not this year, brosaf.

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02-12-2010 , 11:52 AM

#60824

MEb

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sportsjefe

I think he meant to say 'Jordan by the age of 25 had etc etc.' whereas Lebron by the age of 25 will have etc etc. considering his 'age of 25' season isn't finished yet.

Its not just what I meant to say, its what I did say.