Kryie isn't top 15 because defense is half the game but agree the George Hill love in the thread has gotten out of hands

"Irving top 5 asset" spiciest take

Kyrie not being >>> Hill is an asset is pretty lol but still not as lol as having him a top 5 asset, not even really close`

I mostly just lurk TZ these days, but the Hill/Kyrie convo piques my interest. I think Hill is tremendously underrated and Kyrie overrated(especially in the context of being on a "super team") due to one small yet overlooked skillset: The ability to make a quick and correct "next pass."

When watching Kyrie play, its pretty clear that he learned to play basketball by playing streetball in the United States. Often times, before 10 people show up, you'll play 21(an "everyone for themselves" game which forces every player to improve their isolation scoring skills). And then once you finally do get 10, it ends up being a situation where players take turns isolating each possession instead of playing cohesive team basketball. As such, players like Kyrie develop great court vision/passing when they have the ball in their hands, but they never quite master the ability to scan the court and make a read WHILE THE BALL IS STILL IN THE AIR BEING PASSED TO THEM. And so when the offense would benefit from a quick "next pass", Kyrie's first instinct is to catch it and begin a series of one-on-one moves as he scans the floor for open teammates. (note: Its possible that young player development in the USA has improved more than I realize the past few years, but things were definitely this way when Kyrie was growing up).


Imo, the most important skillsets for the 2nd and 3rd best players on a superteam to have:

-Ability to hit catch-and-shoot open 3 pointers
-Ability to play one-on-one defense, particularly against the elite SFs
-Ability to play team defense, particularly rim protection
-Ability to make a quick and correct "next pass" within the flow of the offense


Kyrie does 1/4, George Hill does 4/4. Kryie's shot creating ability simply isn't THAT important when you have a superteam.



Also its worth mentioning how much of a "free pass" playing alongside Lebron James gives players. We just saw how hesitant people are to accept CP3's stat-based greatness due to his lack of team success, yet take a look at Kyrie's record without Lebron:

-Cavs went 21-45 his rookie year
-Cavs went 24-58 his second year
-Cavs went 33-49 his third year
-Cavs have gone 4-19 without Lebron since Lebron returned(according to this article: http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-c...main-at-a-loss)


79-171 comes out to a 31.6% W/L record, which would've been 3rd worst in the league last year behind only the Suns and Nets. Thats shockingly bad.

If you took out the caveat non rookie deal and locked into a multi year deal then maybe Kyrie is a top 5 asset especially with Curry/Durant getting PAID this offseason.

But that group basically is restricted to a few guys who are out of their rookie deals but not in there third deal which is when things blow up.

Davis
Giannis
Kawhi
Gobert

Are definitely >> Kyrie in that case.

Defense is half the game but it's much more aggregated across the 5 players on the court than offense is. Kyrie's offense is significantly more valuable than his defense is harmful. And significantly more valuable than any PG's defense can be valuable. So take a guy like CP3 whose offense is there too and sure you can say he's better than Kyrie. But you cannot say that Conley and Hill are better than Kyrie because of defense.

I mean you can, but it'll expose you as clueless.

George Hill has some REALLY bad playoff stats. Let's not take that into consideration. When he goes against elite competition, he sucks. Kyrie is basically the opposite of that.

Assani is a top 5 asset to this thread

Definitely favors it. Anyway I think the majority of his issues are related to his handle--it's very rudimentary for someone in the NBA imo.

Assani those points are fair but the Cavs wouldn't really have a super team if their starting lineup was

Hill-Smith-LeBron-Love-TT

So those skills that Hill>Kyrie in wouldn't really matter as much.

Even with LeBron, there is still a large need for creation to come from somewhere else and Kyrie is all-time good at that.

Also, I really wish there were a way to bet on this(because based upon everyone else's thoughts, I could prob get really good odds) but I think the Rockets w/CP3 > Spurs w/CP3.

The Spurs roster other than Kawhi is being way overrated(which is why I so strongly believe Kawhi was MVP). LMA/Gasol/Tony are all older and Manu is gone. Pop is still a great motivator/leader, but 2p2 is overrating his edge in the X's and O's department(I think MDA is a better offensive coach and will "get more out of" CP3 on that end of the floor).

The Rockets seemed to crash-and-burn in the playoffs ,and I think they're being underrated going forward as a result. CP3/Harden/Ariza/Randerson with a rim protector at center and Eric Gordon coming off the bench and MDA's offensive scheme is a really solid team. Moreover, they seems to realize the value of shooting a ton of 3s in order to increase the variance when you're a big underdog(which is realistically the only shot they or the Spurs have vs Warriors).

Hill also can't stay on the court which is kind of a big deal. Not that Kyrie is a beacon of health, but he's much younger and Hill's constant nagging injuries this entire year are pretty concerning.

Going to be hard to get a good rim protector when you have to pay CP3 so much. Also depleting the bench entirely isn't a great way to fix the crash and burn problem from this year.

I was joking fwiw, since I'm always blowing George Hill.

Tho he might actually be better but as has been pointed out, Kyrie going God mode is a thing that Hill doesn't offer.

I think a theoretical Hill/George swap would be a failure, but at this point what do they have to lose?

Control of a 25 year old star?

Meh I think Chavs would be better off racing to the bottom if Lebron leaves. I do see what you mean though as they'd be losing asset value in a theoretical swap.

Kyrie can average 30ppg in a series vs the best team in basketball. Doesnt matter how much better Hills defense is over Kyrie. Its not going to make up for how strong Kyries offense is vs the warriors. This isnt even taking into account Hill is 6 years older then Irving and injury prone.

What happens the rest of the season doesnt even matter. Kyrie has played well in the finals the past two seasons.

Also if LBJ leaves in free agency the cavs can hold Irving to build around or trade him and get good value. G.Hill is going to be worth nothing.

Not saying G.Hill isnt a underrated strong all around player. Just moving a 25 year old top 15-20 player for him isnt going to happen.

Haven't they traded a number of their first round picks already?

Once Lebron leaves they're likely who the Nets are now; little talent and no draft assets.

They can trade the 1year left on k.love & kyrie contracts if lebron leaves next year & get probably 2, they're fine.

https://www.prosportstransactions.co.../Cavaliers.htm

I agree. That wouldn't be a superteam because George Hill isn't quite skilled enough and because, similar to Kyrie, Love isn't a great fit on a superteam.

However, I think swapping Paul George and Hill for Kyrie/Love would be a near neutral swap talent-wise yet would greatly improve their title equity due to fit.



Basically I think Lebron is the GOAT and I think he correctly realized "even though people will initially criticize the building of super teams, they'll forget all about it if you win titles." However he f*cked up by misunderstanding proper superteam building strategy. He went with an antiquated approach of "Well I'm a SF, so I'll get one superstar big man and one superstar guard." He should've instead said "There are only a handful of stud versatile SF/PF hybrids like myself in the league and our skillsets are PERFECT for superteams. Moreover, opposing teams absolutely need one of these players to stop me. Therefore, I'm going to find 2 of these types of players to team up with."


Imo Lebron + Paul George + Gordon Hayward + solid role players + good coach would be solid favorites(at least -200 w/HCA) vs Warriors

It has nothing to do with catch and shoot, never said that but I'm not surprised as your reading comprehension is ****.

It has everything to do with defense, Kyrie and love are terrible defenders. You can't have 1 + defender in your starting 5, hell on your entire team and beat the warriors. Hill and PG and massive upgrades on the defensive side of the ball and PG can help guard Durant and give Lebron some rest.

I feel like they could get the spurs to throw Lma in a Hill for Irving deal. Could roll out something like Hill-PG-James-Lma-TT or Hill-shump/smith-PG-James-Lma

Edit: I'm an idiot

This x100