YOU MEAN ON BASKETBALL-REFERENCE?

Also getting the player etc

this post is really bad. i'ma break it down.

1. the spread you use for kevin johnson, one season is 90/91, the other is 95/96. 95/96 is the only season where he shot more than 1 3-pointer.

2. you post that defensive quote about kj guarding jordan in 92. well then you can't use offensive metrics from 95/96, when he was older and probably slower. the team he put those numbers up on, was 40-42, 43-39 pythag. granted the rest of the team wasn't great, but it wasn't that bad either. pretty deep down the bench.

3. kevin johnson is awesome. i love him, but he wasn't really a shooter. i'm sure tuq will elaborate more on this and agree/disagree with me, but imo he developed that as his career went on.

4. what you're doing is the equivalent of taking 89/90 jordan, and saying he also had veteran savvy, the turnaround jumper, and all that other great stuff jordan developed in his career.

assani, you're one of the better posters, but we expect more out of you.

Of all the guard/wing positions, three point shooting is least valuable in a true PG.

I got a year for Kemp and I got a year for Ginobili. Not sure about Payton yet. I can get his DPOY year or his best year statistically but his team was pretty average that year (no Kemp and replacement starting boozing).

Kemp: 1995-1996: 22.6 PER, 63.1% TS%, 111 Orat, 97 Drat, 11.5 WS. 33.3 MPG, 19.6 ppg, 11.4 rpb, 2.2 apg, 1.2 spg, 1.6 bpg, 4.0 TO/g.
Ginobili: 2007-2008: 24.3 PER, 61.2% TS%, 116 Orat, 100 Drat, 10.7 WS. 31.1 MPG, 19.5 ppg, 40% from 3 and made 2.1 a game. 4.8 rebs, 4.5 assists, 1.5 steals and 2.7 TO/g

Eh...okay. In that case, I have no clue why he hasn't been drafted =}

geez, youre so stuckey yo.

KJ definitely has a better offensive peak than Payton. There is no denying it. He's more efficient and got more assists per game. But Payton isn't bad in both those catagories at his peak and was an elite defender. I wanted great 2 way players. If I had a D12, Hakeem, KG, etc. I would definitely consider getting KJ as my PG. Seems like a good combo, KJ and KG. One of the sicker passing big-small tandems we have so far.

I compare my team to a slightly modified Spurs big 3 so far. TD >> Kemp obviously. Manu=Manu and Payton > Current Spurs PG.

Payton>KJ and it's not even slightly close. I'm not knowledgeable enough about KJ's defense but I doubt he's better than Nash and Billups. Him and Penny are probably close.

BTW Assani you are just giving links to prove Nash is a much more valuable PG than KG at least offensively.

Really cmon his AST% is 10 points higher, his ts% is .5 higher, all around the same usage.

If stats are your arguing point don't compare him to Nash.

Also let's not start a myth that KJ was a great defender

i think people are seriously underrating nash itt. he didn't deserve to go where i picked him, but imo he's the best 3 point shooter of all time, he's an unbelievably elite passer, and he makes all his teammates better.

Also pretty sure no one is saying it's a bad pick as much as sayin let's not get giddy and go calling him the 4th best PG in the draft

i'll wait for GKA to post about this more in depth, but we were actually talking about payton/kemp last night, and after reading dean oliver's book his conclusion was:

payton better offensively than we thought, not as good defensively
kemp elite defensively, not as good offensively as we thought

From the stats, you get very similar conclusions.

I think Kemp going in the first round would have been justifiable.

btw, i'm still looking to deal vince carter, if anyone wants to trade a pick coming up very soon

I dunno, his youtube video should put him only second to Magic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqfRC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64a4BMrngg4

Round 2 : Pick 62 / Bobby Jones – 6’9” - Forward



Awards :

5 time all star
11 time all defense (2 ABA 9 NBA)
10 time all defense 1st team
1983 sixth man of the year
33rd ALL TIME Drtg
41st ALL TIME Ortg
NBA Champ!

Stats for the year I’m taking him (Age 29/36Mins)

PER 20.1 / 19.3 PTS / .604 TS / 118 Ortg / 99 Drtg / 9.4 Win Shares / 7.7 Rebs / 4 AST / 1.7 Stl / 1.3 blk


“If I was going to ask a youngster to model after someone, I would pick Bobby Jones. He’s a player who’s totally selfless, who runs like a deer, jumps like a gazelle, plays with his head and heart each night, and then walks away from the court as if nothing happened.” – Julius Erving

“If everyone in the world was like Bobby Jones, the world wouldn’t have any problems.” – Charles Barkley

Yep, I’m picking a bench player in the second round (eat your heart out Mchale). Defense wins championships, so I’m picking the player who was widely considered the “best defender not named Bill Russell” when I was a kid and first started watching basketball. One of my first NBA memories was Dennis Rodman’s first DPOY, where at the press conference they said he was the best all-around defender next to Bobby Jones, and that if the award had existed back then, he’d have won several.

Statistically, he was phenomenal. To be ranked 33rd all-time in Drating and 41st all time in Ortg is extremely rare. He was a pretty good scorer, averaging 18-20 PP/36 over the “three year period” on a 60+ TS%. While I definitely wouldn’t consider him to be a creator of any kind, his numbers prove that he’s great at finding the open spots and finishing. I wouldn’t call him a garbage man by any means, as his relatively high assist rates show that he’s still pretty unselfish with the ball.

Defensively there was no equal when he was in the league. Earning first team all defensive nods your whole career alone is enough, but his advanced metrics are some of the best ever put up by a SF/PF.

So we’ve got a guy who plays amazing D, passes, is efficient, scores a nice volume. Why did he slip so far? Well, he was a bench player and only played more than 30 minutes a game one time in his career. He’s also a tweener who played PF for the Nugs and SF for most of his career. His lack of minutes is a little puzzling, but in doing the research you can see that he played behind a lot of “greats” when it comes to scoring, but I could be wrong. Even with his lack of minutes, he consistently ranked in the top 2-3 on his team in win shares, which is great considering that he played on some great squads. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say he can play 32-35 minutes a game, but I’m not going to count on it.

At this time, I have no idea where I’m going to play him.

And Bobbo if you’re reading, he’s the player whom I think is better than AK47. His PER is close, but he was a more efficient scorer, better defender, and most importantly he was a very good playoff performer whereas AK47 pretty much sucks balls in come playoff time .

Team so far:

Kareem Abdul Jabbar 7'2" – C
Bobby Jones – 6'9" - SF/PF

OMG can we get some ****ing picks up in this bitch?

Nice write up for Bobby...def one of those 80's guy I had no clue about

I took their best 3 consecutive seasons, representing their theoretical "peaks".

Kevin Johnson

PER 22.3 / 22 PPG / 11.2 AST/ .60TS / 12.5 Winshrs / Ortg 120 / Drtg 108 - Team Drtg 106

Steve Nash

PER 22.7 /18PPG / 11.1 AST/ .64TS / 12.3 Winshrs / Ortg 122 / Drtg 110 - Team Drtg 106

Gary Payton

PER 22.9 / 23PPG / 8.6 AST / .53TS / 12.4 Winshrs / Ortg 113 / Drtg 107 - team Drtg 105.3

And FWIW, Chauncey

PER 22.7 / 17.5PPG / 6.8 AST / .60TS / 12.8 Winshrs / Ortg 126 / Drtg 106 - team Drtg 103.4

After the big 3, I had them ranked:

KJ, Nash, Payton, with Chauncey being an outlier since I don't consider him to be a true PG. I think he's the best player, but he's more of a tweener that plays PG.

I had KJ highest because he represented the best combo of offense and defense, and his Drtg of 2 points less than his teams, without a dominant shot blocker behind him, is actually quite good. Nash is clearly the best offensive player of the group, and quite possibly the best offensive player in the draft, however I gave him knocks because of his defense.

Payton's D seems to be worse than we all thought, with a DRtg 2.5 points higher than his teams, and his offense isn't anywhere in the same league as the other guys when it comes to efficiency. Here's a situation where I think he'd be better if he actually shot less.

I agree.

Drtg argggggggh

Payton's D while "worse than you might think" was way beyond KJs,

Also you are just showing APG and PPG, GP and KJ had very similat AST% in their peaks, Payton was just as good of a distributor

tbach,

I feel like you're kinda ignoring these two posts of mine which pretty much agree with everything you're saying:

RE: PGs and three point shooting.

First of all, KJ WAS a great shooter. He had a deadly pull-up, which is why he was able to get by so many defenders.

Anyway, three point shooting is not necessary when the player dominates the ball. Nashua is the exception, but we only have to look at guys like LBJ, MJ, Magic, and to a lesser extent CP3 to realize this. If KJ was a spot op guy I could see this being an issue, but he's the type of player that has the ball in his hands most of the time, and with the exception of a couple of players, the pull-up 3 is almost never the best shot to take.

If he were a SG, or if he played alongside an LBJ type, then absolutely his lack of 3 point shooting would not be good. Fortunately he is the LBJ type player on Assani's team, so he just needs shooters and finishers around him.. and what a shocker, KG is one of the best shooting bigs around!

now youre being stuckey, yo

I think seadood made a valid point...and I thnk its odd for you metric mongers to deny what he just posted.

It seems like the trend is to go by the numbers when we feel they favor the popular thought...and when they dont, you guys act all stuckey, yo.

Let's not totally ignore the horrible problems with DRtg.

Also it's probably not a coincidence or conspiracy that pretty much EVERYONE Payton guarded said he was the best man defender in the league.

I can even remember Sportscenter clips and specials with players going on about how great a defender he was.