Just because people don't watch all the games, doesn't mean the GM's have access to more info. And AAU games aren't relevant anymore really, its dated info.

We get the results of measurements and plenty of sources recap these camps. Is there some magic super secret drill we don't know about?

Utterly irrelevant.

[quoteNBA/College connections. I'm sure many of these NBA guys have friends who coach in some manner in college and have advanced scouting reports on these kids. You don't think being able to ask a friend who coaches for a Conference USA team about Derrick Rose helps at all? You don't think he might have some insight that us here at twoplustwo don't have?[/quote]

So you're arguing that dumb guys have smart friends?


We're debating available relevant information. You're suggesting they have some secret sauce which has 2p2ers at some inherent huge informational disadvantage. I think that's patently false.

This one doesn't seem that tough. The Mayo pick is a greater risk/reward than Love, while they are close to the same level right now. I think that's pretty clear, so all these arguments are just speculation.

FWIW I like Mayo on any team that royally sucks, because there is always next year and you can get rid of guy for a decent price, even if he performs poorly the first season or so. I don't like what Memphis gave up for him, though.

I'm anxious to see how Minnesota performs with a passer like Love and an all-world shooter. My guess is they win 35-40 next year. Am I reaching?

I'm glad you said this clark bc I really wasn't sure on what to think about mayo's defense and I'm skeptical of SE's classification of people as "very good" and "elite defenders" when it seems like there's about 20 wings out there who at one time or another have been referred to as elite or close to all nba level

Conley-Mayo-Gay backcourt has a chance to be pretty good. Will see though. If the Grizzles just got Mayo and didn't get Arthur I would have been pretty upset but the two together should make for a solid core in 3-4 seasons. Mayo could be a all-star level player in a couple of years although he could be horrible as well. Love is good but I'm not sure if he'll ever be AS level in a stacked WC, but I definitely liked him a lot in a Grizzles uniform next year.

when I first read that I thought it was really high, but now looking at the roster I think you're spot on. I think miller adds about 10 wins, and I think love will be a bit better than an average player adding about 8 wins. Subtract a few wins from the guys whose minutes they're taking and I think you're spot on.

I am grunching this whole thread to share thoughts:

I really wanted the Supes to get Augustine, but I can't hate on Westbrook. A better choice than Lopez or some of the other possible lurking mistakes.

I like using the 2nd 1st round pick on a guy who won't queer up the cap right now, and might be good later. I doubt most fans will understand this, but it's a smart move.

DJ White seems like a nice fit.

I think Portland owned. As a team that probably has a 60% shot of being my team in like 2 years, it's nice to see that. Bayless is a great scorer.

I don't know if the NBA is the same way, but in the weeks leading up to the NFL Draft, most draftniks always seem a step behind what the actual scouts/teams are thinking. When something "crazy" happens, there's usually a reason for it.

so the cavs picked up darnell jackson and sasha kaun both from kansas.

anyone know anything about these clowns? d-leaguers right?

35 seems like a good ceiling.

grunching this

I guess I'm in the minority here. Bayless's upside is higher, but I think Rush is probably better. Bayless is a tweener who's too small for the 2-guard and lacks PG skills yet dominates the ball. Does he fall in line under McMillan? Does he play alongside Roy, who's more of a point-playing 2-guard anyway? Does Bayless even get minutes if Rudy Fernandez is as good as some think?

Rush just seemed like a great fit. In general, I don't think either team really dominated that trade. Portland did do good overall though.

New Jersey, Minny, and Portland clear winners of this draft, imo.

Kaun's getting a million a year for three years to go play in his native Russia, doubt you'll be seeing him schlep around the D-League anytime soon. Jackson, no clue.

I was out grinding at Caesars and just saw this after going back thru the thread. PLS, PLS, PLS tell me this post is a level or that you were drunk/high. My point was that you require excellent post players to win rings, the guards can be good or great. Nothing in your response refutes my point and much in it confirms my point. For example, Bird's Celtics featured Bird, McHale, Parish, at the 3, 4, 5. So what if Bird was the best player, that team was post oriented, and Bird was a big part of that. I'm guessing you never saw these teams play since you listed Cornbread Maxwell (a 6-9 PF) as a guard. Magic's Lakers also had a HOF center (Kareem) and Worthy (great post player) and Magic himself played 60% of the time in the paint *(all of D and sometimes on O) once again you must not have seen this team play. Kareem won rings w/o Magic, but not vice versa. I already pointed out the great post play of the Pistons, yes Isaiah was the best player, but the Piston were loaded in the paint, esp. on D. Outside of Jordan's Bulls, which I noted as exceptions, no team on these lists helps your point, look at all the HOF 5s on these teams (Moses, Parish, Kareem, Olajuwon, plus Duncan and Shaq) From 79-80 on only Jordan's Bulls and the Pistons teams didn't have a HOF Center, that alone proves my point.

Assani,

I think you are somewhat right when you say you need both great perimeter play and great interior play to win a championship but I think there's a pretty cool argument for why post play is more important.

(this argument is taken from Berri's wages of wins, I'm a huge WoW disciple and think the critiques of his are really off, but I think this argument is just true)

The average height of guards is probably somewhere around 6'5 or 6'6, the average height of PF's and C's is 6'10 and the average height of an American male is 5'9. The standard deviation of height in America is 3 inches. This means that any PF or C is about 4 or 5 standard deviations away from average. Simply put, the parlay of high athleticism, high bball intelligence, and being tall is an incredible parlay to hit that few people in the world can hit. The potential pool for guards is way way higher. This means that you should build your team from the inside out, as good post presence is very hard to find, but you can always pick up solid wings later. Look at those Shaq teams, the reason they win is bc of shaq. It's clear that without Kobe, that those teams probably wouldn't win 3 championships, but there are a lot more wings close to kobe then there were centers close to shaq. Look at the game today, the only great 2 post players are Duncan, KG, Howard, Amare, Howard, Yao, maybe Brand. You have some other guys who are good but not great, but almost every team has a decent player than can play a wing spot. Wade, Kobe,Pierce,Lebron,Gerald Wallace, Jason Richardon, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin, Shawn Marion, Lamar Odom, Rudy Gay, Mike Miller,rip hamilton, Manu,etc. Even if I'm being stingy on who the great post players are, it's clear to me that there is a shorter supply of them, and that explains why big men are so important to winning a championship. Once you hit that parlay and can get a highly skilled big man, it's a lot easier to slot in the rest of the guys and reach a championship level of talent than trying to start there with a hole and good guard play.

Man, Laettner was actually a pretty solid NBA player until his injury.[/nitpick]

Yeah, Kaun may play in Russia if he doesn't make the Cavs roster. Jackson is decent player, might squeeze into a roster spot. They both got much better in their 4 years at KU, particularly their senior years when they both became capable at scoring. Jackson plays good d and gets boards. Yes, I'm a KU homer, but I think Uncle Darnell could help Cleveland.

Stuckey is going to be a big time player. There is no doubt about it.

There are tons of good players who were horribly inefficient as a rookie and improved dramatically. Lebron, Pippen, Mark Price, Kyle Korver, those were just a few of the names that jumped off of a quick b-ref search who had similar TS% as Stuckey their rookie years and improved dramatically.

I tend to think Stuckey will be very good not great. Which is to say very valuable. His jump shot is shaky but he's an excellent attacker.

one would hope a player doesn't peak during his rookie year, so of course there are players who had massive jumps; however, i'm going to guess that there are far more who had notable, but not substantial improvements. while the ts%'s are comparable, there is a substantial difference b/t their efg%'s. time will tell wrt to whether he improves a lot or little, but offering up these players as reasons why he will doesn't prove much b/c they are exceptions. it's one thing to say stuckey has the potential to be a good player and another to claim he is a rising star.

i just don't really know what to say to this. i am not deducing he is not efficient-- the numbers speak for themselves. they may not be completely accurate, but they're all we've got for now and they are more likely to be a decent representation of his efficiency than they are to be a gross aberration. seeing him in the playoffs it is clear that stuckey has potential, but again that is not the same as saying he is going to be a "big time player."

bc it takes a big man to win titles and Yao just isnt good enuogh to lead a team. only one team ever won without a great big man in my lifetime but they had the greatest player to ever play the game and did do it six times. Yao is a horrible on defense as well he is over 7ft and still get dunked on he needs to learn how to foul hard.

Luc Longley agrees.

Yao isn't horrible on D by any means or metric. He's actually really, really good. Career DRTG is 99, and an average rebounder for a big man and average shot blocker. The only big problem with Yao is the number of games he misses. He's a good shooter, good FT shooter, solid scorer, and decent passer.

lol at saying yao doesn't suck on D.

Yao's pick and roll defense is horrible, him and Shaq are the 2 worst pick and roll starting bigmen in the NBA right now.

Yao's post defense however is very good.

lol at yao having any skills at d if his post d is any good why does he get dunked on so much.

Tons of great shotblockers come to mind as getting dunked on.... Mourning, Ratliff, AK47 etc.

It's because they challenge every shot, of course they will get dunked on ocasionally. You act like Yao is getting dunked on every game, that is hardly the case.