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Old 05-15-2008, 02:10 AM   #2426
Green Kool Aid
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i really cant wait til the guy i was debating taking instaed of gasol gets taken so i can tell everyone who it was and why i had a dilemma
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:11 AM   #2427
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Please name all of the 22 year olds that are top 2 in MVP voting that fell off the map(not counting injuries).

This past year he was top 5 in the entire league(and many would say he was #1).....barring injury, why would you think he'd fall off?
Because the ones who fall off outnumber the ones who keep it up. There are a BUNCH of players left who had great starts to their careers that won't be picked for a while because of either dramatic declines, injuries (of which there is reason to be concerned with Paul), or peaks that ended by 30.

Just conceding that a short PG with foot/ankle issues is worth picking above the best "pure" PG of all time (Magic is something of an anomaly) based on one great year is just nuts.

There's always a "next big thing", so many fall by the wayside. CP3, talented as he is and as great a year as he had, is a dog to end up with a career as good as Payton or Kidd, let alone Stockton.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:12 AM   #2428
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

"CP3, talented as he is and as great a year as he had, is a dog to end up with a career as good as Kidd"

i'm speechless.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:13 AM   #2429
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Clark do you similarly disapprove of the Howard and Amare picks? They were taken a little lower but nobody's ever mentioned them as possible best ever at their position or even MVP candidate.
Howard ahead of Ewing is bad. Amare taken way too early due to injury issues and complete lack of anything resembling a defensive game. To further clarify, I think a case can be made that Elton Brand is a better pick than Amare.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:15 AM   #2430
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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"CP3, talented as he is and as great a year as he had, is a dog to end up with a career as good as Kidd"

i'm speechless.
Yeah this is way over the top. You could practically say the same thing about LBJ and Bird, but it wouldn't be any less ridiculous.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:15 AM   #2431
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Because the ones who fall off outnumber the ones who keep it up. There are a BUNCH of players left who had great starts to their careers that won't be picked for a while because of either dramatic declines, injuries (of which there is reason to be concerned with Paul), or peaks that ended by 30.

Just conceding that a short PG with foot/ankle issues is worth picking above the best "pure" PG of all time (Magic is something of an anomaly) based on one great year is just nuts.

There's always a "next big thing", so many fall by the wayside. CP3, talented as he is and as great a year as he had, is a dog to end up with a career as good as Payton or Kidd, let alone Stockton.
You changed my words. "Great starts to their careers" does not equal "arguably the best player in the league at age 22."

Chris Paul's upside is higher than Stocktons, as STock was never considered the best player in the league yet alone at such a young age.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:15 AM   #2432
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'd put Lebron as 40-45% to end up being better than Jordan(although unless he finds a "Pippen" I'd put it at much much less that he accomplishes as much as Jordan, adn therefore I wouldn't be surprised if many people didn't consider him as good).

I'd put Paul as about 45-50% to be better than Stockton.

This is barring injury of course.
how can you put a disclaimer like "barring injury" ??? Lebron plays a very physical style. CP3 already has injury issues.

you have to weight the probability of an injury INTO "being better then X or Y". so, you should say, "LBJ has a roughly 1 in 3 chance of being better then Jordan, no strings attached. CP3 has a roughly 1 in 3 chance of being better then Stockton, no strings attached". End.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:16 AM   #2433
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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How is it legitimate to put barring injury in every post where you pimp up CP3. He has missed like half the games Stockton missed during his entire career in 3 seasons.

Chris. Paul. Is. Injury. Prone.
Hes played 78, 64, and 80 games....thats one minor injury and then two years where he played nearly every game.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:17 AM   #2434
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
how can you put a disclaimer like "barring injury" ??? Lebron plays a very physical style. CP3 already has injury issues.

you have to weight the probability of an injury INTO "being better then X or Y". so, you should say, "LBJ has a roughly 1 in 3 chance of being better then Jordan, no strings attached. CP3 has a roughly 1 in 3 chance of being better then Stockton, no strings attached". End.
The thing is, Jordan and Stockton both played physical styles as well and got very very lucky over their career's not to get hurt (obv they are both very durable, but even durable players can suffer freak injuries).

Remember just because Jordan/Stockton/whoever else who was durable during their careers doesn't mean they won't suffer freak injuries in this league. What if Jordan/Stockton suffers a torn acl or something? They are both underdogs to play that many games again in our make believe seasons (especially Stockton).
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:18 AM   #2435
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yeah this is way over the top. You could practically say the same thing about LBJ and Bird, but it wouldn't be any less ridiculous.
Not at all the same. Lebron has a far more established track record and also doesn't have the injury concerns.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:19 AM   #2436
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
how can you put a disclaimer like "barring injury" ??? Lebron plays a very physical style. CP3 already has injury issues.

you have to weight the probability of an injury INTO "being better then X or Y". so, you should say, "LBJ has a roughly 1 in 3 chance of being better then Jordan, no strings attached. CP3 has a roughly 1 in 3 chance of being better then Stockton, no strings attached". End.
Lebron doesn't appear to be injury prone to me. That would mean that Lebron is just as likely to get injured as MJ in our league. If Lebron suffers a freak injury in real life that doesn't change anything.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:21 AM   #2437
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Not at all the same. Lebron has a far more established track record and also doesn't have the injury concerns.
Would you change your assessment of Paul vs Stockton if Paul's next two years are even close to what he did this year? Because that would put him in a comparable position to where LeBron is today, and I think Paul is a pretty big favorite to average >85% of this year's production over the next two years.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:21 AM   #2438
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You changed my words. "Great starts to their careers" does not equal "arguably the best player in the league at age 22."

Chris Paul's upside is higher than Stocktons, as STock was never considered the best player in the league yet alone at such a young age.
I'm arguing the concept, which is valid. I honestly don't care which exact words you chose, my point is pretty clear.

Dwyane Wade was considered arguably the best player in the league 2 years ago. Where'd he get drafted?
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:23 AM   #2439
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Would you change your assessment of Paul vs Stockton if Paul's next two years are even close to what he did this year? Because that would put him in a comparable position to where LeBron is today, and I think Paul is a pretty big favorite to average >85% of this year's production over the next two years.
Sure. If Paul averages 20/10 at 50% from the field for two more years while avoiding any serious injuries, I'd absolutely modify my stance. He's got to do it though.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:24 AM   #2440
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Wade
MVP Voting
Season Lg Share (Rank)

2004-05 NBA 0.034 (8)
2005-06 NBA 0.070 (6)
2006-07 NBA 0.002 (12)


Paul
MVP Voting
Season Lg Share (Rank)
2007-08 NBA 0.706 (2)
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:24 AM   #2441
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The thing is, Jordan and Stockton both played physical styles as well and got very very lucky over their career's not to get hurt (obv they are both very durable, but even durable players can suffer freak injuries).

Remember just because Jordan/Stockton/whoever else who was durable during their careers doesn't mean they won't suffer freak injuries in this league. What if Jordan/Stockton suffers a torn acl or something? They are both underdogs to play that many games again in our make believe seasons (especially Stockton).
So now we are knocking the chances of Stockton staying healthy while completely ignoring them when evaluating CP3.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:24 AM   #2442
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i dont get how this is different than saying "i think these are the best X players since 1980", except its more drawn out and gayer.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:26 AM   #2443
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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i dont get how this is different than saying "i think these are the best X players since 1980", except its more drawn out and gayer.
LOL @ you trying to troll a 2400+ post thread with this half-assed remark.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:27 AM   #2444
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
So now we are knocking the chances of Stockton staying healthy while completely ignoring them when evaluating CP3.
I didn't ignore thm when evaluating CP3. I just clarified the point that just because Jordan/Stockton were very durable doesn't mean they will automatically be again in this league, obv health wise both are >>>> over CP3, just saying that they are both underdogs to play as many games as they did before if their career's were done from the start of 24 again like they would be in our league.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:28 AM   #2445
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Wade
MVP Voting
Season Lg Share (Rank)

2004-05 NBA 0.034 (8)
2005-06 NBA 0.070 (6)
2006-07 NBA 0.002 (12)


Paul
MVP Voting
Season Lg Share (Rank)
2007-08 NBA 0.706 (2)
As I said, I couldn't care less about one specific qualifier that you've arbitrarily chosen. And again, my point stands. People widely debated Wade vs. Kobe vs. Lebron 2 years ago. Even on this forum people contended that Wade was the best asset of the 3.

Things change, fast. They are human beings, not machines. Just wait til we get to the 5th round and all the 22-24 year old superstars who flamed out spectacularly later in their careers get drafted.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:28 AM   #2446
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Since we're now getting into the range where it's looking likely more trades are going to be made, I thought it would be handy to make a spreadsheet with everyone's draft positions so that you have a good idea of what picks everyone has to trade. I'll try to keep it relatively up to date, if others want the ability to edit it, just PM me your google username so I can add you to the list of people eligible to edit the document. This also is using the 1221122112 reverse snake, let me know if that's wrong.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...RG_QO_r1EoIoaA

Last edited by Dudd; 05-15-2008 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:28 AM   #2447
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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i dont get how this is different than saying "i think these are the best X players since 1980", except its more drawn out and gayer.
Cause team chemestry is factored in just like in real basketball, obv I didn't think Billups was the 42nd best player, but he was easily higher than the 42nd best player in this format, when taken into consideration team chemestry/how rare PG's who can do what he does in this league are.

If you build a team full of Allen Iversons/edited for someone who wasn't drafted only, your team might have the best "players" but they would get crushed in a real game.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:28 AM   #2448
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Clark, ever get around to responding to this post and the one a few below it?

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...65#post3195965
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:29 AM   #2449
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also Assani, just so I'm clear, you approve of Paul being drafted over Stockton right?
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:29 AM   #2450
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

'd have been really happy to grab Pierce and Gasol if I was I told had such a late pick. Its been a joy watching the Lakers play beautiful offense with Pau.

Theres one point guard Im actually surprised hasnt been drafted before Billups, but I don't think he's neccesary a better pick.
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