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Old 06-02-2008, 04:45 PM   #9876
horizon
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by sergsz View Post
I am interested in hearing some feedback about my intention to play Gay at the 2? Can it work? He seems to have fairly similar body/skillset to Durant, so I figured it was an option....
Personnaly I'm not convinced that playing DUrant at the two is something tat you should emulate.
Gay can definitely play the two, but you 're probably losing some value (not muchŕ
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:15 PM   #9877
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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this is about Granger....

Bobbo, you and I agree about most things here, but I don't get how you don't like Granger better. His TS% has gone from 54.0 to 57.3 to 57.1 while his scoring has gone from 12.0 to 14.8 to 19.6. There are only a handful of people in the league who can score in bulk efficiently. Hes also a decent rebounder and passer for a SF. I don't watch enough of him to know about his defense, but 1.2 steals and 1.1 blocks look solid to me. Perhaps tell me what you don't like about him.
I don't think he's better than Josh Howard, Corey Maggette, etc. (That group of SF) Is he a productive player? Yes.

I understand PER isn't the end all be all, but last season was his first where it recognizes him as greater than average. And it isn't a usage fault, either - career wise he's right around average, whereas last year he carried slightly more than his fair share. It's because he cannot pass, turns it over too much for a guy who doesn't bring the ball up or dominate it much on offense, fouls too much, etc.

Here's the deal - he'll be 25 next year and he may get better. (He has gotten better every other season) He'll likely peak at 26 (like most SGs/SFs, especially not coming out of high school) so this is close to the best we'll get. And the best we'll get is not all star caliber.

Again, a Corey Maggette/Josh Howard best IS all star caliber.
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:18 PM   #9878
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also Bobbo, just to be clear that is AC's 5 man lineup we are talking about, not team fanmail as you were saying. Carry on now.
Yeah, I realize today I made the mistake, sorry
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:23 PM   #9879
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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A couple things:

1. Jim O'Brien is a player killer. I hope they boot him from Indiana before he makes Granger a camper.

2. Granger at 24 >> Howard at 24. And I think he'll show more improvement as it seems he's already doing. (I also think that Granger at 24 > Howard at 28)

3. Midrange jumpers, according to John Hollinger, are the worst.

4. Calvin Natt is definitely made up.

5. Assani, that's a solid list for best steals of the draft. It pained me to take Kemp over Deron Williams, but it was something I had to do. I almost took DW with my 1st round pick. And Moncreif is awesome.

6. Bobbo, way to include Terrell Brandon on a list of your "best picks of the round" after previously getting on Epipen's case about it.

7. O'Brien is the worst. His teams are good, but unless as a player you can think to yourself "okay, this is a Jim O'Brien team, I have to remember how to play basketball after I'm done here," then you're screwed.

8. Bobbo, you seem to be the only one who doesn't like the Durant pick and I don't understand why. I respect your basketball knowledge, but it seems we go opposite ways on a fair amount of issues, and this one is particularly strange as you are the only one who doesn't like it and you didn't like it enough to put it on your list of "bad picks" this round.
1. J'OB does the best with what's around him. He made a Pacers team competitive when most felt it had the least talent in the NBA.

2. You're flatout wrong here; you have an argument 24 vs 24, but 24 vs 28 only you, seadood, Danny Granger's mom, and maybe Danny Granger's #3 fan believe that.

3. They're the worst in general. Doesn't mean there's no place in the NBA for them. Guys like Monta, Nash, a guy who hasn't been drafted yet, etc. are so good at it that although they would be better served in shooting 3s instead of those inside the arc 2s, they still do it fine. It's when guys who are NOT good at midrange (like Lebron) that start taking jumpshots is when they're in trouble.

4. No

5. I wanted Moncrief more than anyone - the two guys I wanted to trade up to take were Deron and Moncrief.

6. I got on Epi's case because he constantly throws his team in people's faces.

7. WTF does this even mean???

8. We'll just have to wait and see on him.
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:25 PM   #9880
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also, Jerry Stackhouse is a ****ing terrible pick. There's absolute no reason to take an inefficient guy who shoots 15 times a game at this point, ESPECIALLY when you already have 3 other guys who take 15 shots a game and one of them is an epic chucker.
Yeah, I looked him up a while ago to double check my read of him, and Stackhouse was just never as good as his reputation.
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:28 PM   #9881
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

GKA will have his pick up as soon as MEB picks, I guarantee that.
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:32 PM   #9882
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
1. J'OB does the best with what's around him. He made a Pacers team competitive when most felt it had the least talent in the NBA.

2. You're flatout wrong here; you have an argument 24 vs 24, but 24 vs 28 only you, seadood, Danny Granger's mom, and maybe Danny Granger's #3 fan believe that.

3. They're the worst in general. Doesn't mean there's no place in the NBA for them. Guys like Monta, Nash, a guy who hasn't been drafted yet, etc. are so good at it that although they would be better served in shooting 3s instead of those inside the arc 2s, they still do it fine. It's when guys who are NOT good at midrange (like Lebron) that start taking jumpshots is when they're in trouble.

4. No

5. I wanted Moncrief more than anyone - the two guys I wanted to trade up to take were Deron and Moncrief.

6. I got on Epi's case because he constantly throws his team in people's faces.

7. WTF does this even mean???

8. We'll just have to wait and see on him.
1/7. You allow players to play in a Jim O'Brien system too long and they become chuckers. Plain and simple. They develop no other basketball talents and camp and chuck. I acknowledged that his teams do well all things considered, but he does not do well with player development IMO.

2. Well 4 of us are right then. But you and I have gone on enough about this.

3. I like blanket statements. I understand the 2 point jump shot as having a place in the game. That said, you mention Monta as a guy who should take 3's instead of 2's? WTF?

4. This definitely looks like a wikipedia page that tdarko put up.

5. Yep. And they were two of the best picks in the draft.

6. No, I'm going to paraphrase but you said something like "Epipen, notice that (another poster) and I don't put our own teams in our rankings." (BTW I was the first person to start that trend, and still don't do it, despite my thinking my picks are wicked awesome.)

7. See 1/7.

8. Do you think Durant won't be good in IRL? Or is it just not a good fit for my team in your IMO?
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:42 PM   #9883
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Bobbo I take it all back, your new usage of multi-quote is hot stuff and I, indeed, wouldn't know what to do without your commentary.

Also, the holy trinity of this forum is Steve Nash, Brent MF'n Barry, and now, apparently Billy Paultz. Racism ftwwwwwwwwww

Edit: Did I read that right that Stack and Baron are on the same team? Holy ****.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:05 PM   #9884
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Dude, this forum hates Nash, except for tup.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:09 PM   #9885
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I love nash man
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:12 PM   #9886
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
I don't think he's better than Josh Howard, Corey Maggette, etc. (That group of SF) Is he a productive player? Yes.

I understand PER isn't the end all be all, but last season was his first where it recognizes him as greater than average. And it isn't a usage fault, either - career wise he's right around average, whereas last year he carried slightly more than his fair share. It's because he cannot pass, turns it over too much for a guy who doesn't bring the ball up or dominate it much on offense, fouls too much, etc.

Here's the deal - he'll be 25 next year and he may get better. (He has gotten better every other season) He'll likely peak at 26 (like most SGs/SFs, especially not coming out of high school) so this is close to the best we'll get. And the best we'll get is not all star caliber.

Again, a Corey Maggette/Josh Howard best IS all star caliber.
Let's compare the three at age 24. The thing we'll run into that might cause us trouble would be defense so I'll get it out of the way now. IMO:

Howard = Granger >>>>> Maggette (I'll never understand your defense of Maggette as a defender, he's below average on a team that has two very good defensive big men).

Now offensively speaking, each of them fills a roll. Maggette is the best at creating offense for himself (easily). He gets to the line at an insane rate which negates the fact that he's not super talented at scoring in other ways. Besides that though, he's not great. He averages more turnovers than he does assists for his career (and if you take it from 24+, it's still probably not good). This is bad considering A) he is very largely involved in the offense and B) he has Elton Brand, who is a very competent finisher. So in conclusion, if you have a team that can't do much offensively, and just want someone who can score by himself, then this is your guy.

Next we have Josh Howard. Howard is good in that he can do it both with and without the ball. But he's not very efficient. He's never been higher than a 54.8% TS%. Howard is the least turnover prone of the bunch, but he's also not a high assist guy (the past 4 seasons he's been anywhere between 1.3-1.8 TO/game while dishing out 1.4-2.2 (usually on the higher end) APG). So it's not like he's some insane playmaker. I know that Dallas runs a lot of Iso plays, but this is still a pretty low number when you have great shooters like Dirk and JET as the #1 and #3 (Howard was #2 in FGA) options, and nobody really close to them.

Finally, we have my boy Danny Granger. Howard was 27 last season. Maggette was 28. Granger was 24. Bobbo was right that he is turnover prone, considering how little he touches the ball. 2.1 turnovers a game. He only averaged 2.1 APG, so that's not good. But consider this, he plays on Indiana! They have very little talent and a decent proportion of their scoring comes on 3 pointers, which is a low % (although high yield) play. Granger is also a sick shooter. Averaged over 40% on 3's this season, while shooting 5.3 per game. His overall TS% is lower than Maggette's (and higher than Howard's) at 57.1%, but it's not that much lower.

So let's take all that we know. We've already got the defense assumption out of the way. Now let's consider the implications of each players games:

Maggette does a lot for himself, and scores at a high %, but does not create for his teammates well, which is no good considering how much he handles the ball.

Howard is good, but is not super efficient.

Granger scores a lot at a high %. He is good off the ball and allows others to set him up, but is not great at setting others up and is turnover prone, considering how little he handles the ball.

In our format I would go:
Granger > Howard >>>> Maggette

IRL I would go:
Granger = Howard (at 27!) >> Maggette (obviously team dependent, but just in general)

So I'm not just a huge ******ed Granger fanboi, I'm just a Granger fanboi.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:13 PM   #9887
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

<----world's biggest Nash fan (after tuq probs)
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:25 PM   #9888
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Pick is up, go go go GKA pick.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:27 PM   #9889
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

solid pick for your team IMO
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:28 PM   #9890
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

GKA's pick will be up by 8 PM EST IMO
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:30 PM   #9891
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Personally, taking a look at Lebron's first and second years and seeing the similarity in how Durant improved over his first year, I think its a great pick.
Maybe comparing players to Lebron James isn't a very good idea. First off LBJ didn't go to college, the highest level of play for Lebron prior to the NBA was against teams that had maybe 2 players who would end up starting for a D-1 team the next year. Often he played against teams that would have 0, his jump from year 1 to year 2 can be partially attributed to this huge increase in talent on both his team and in his competition. A better comparison (from an experience level) would be Carmelo Anthony who had very similar production in year 2 before making a sizable jump which he has maintained.

Lebron's rookie year > Durant's rookie year, likelihood of Durant matching Lebron's improvement = slim.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:31 PM   #9892
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Come on biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigchips/cat, get it together.

We aren't the same guy !
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:39 PM   #9893
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Maybe comparing players to Lebron James isn't a very good idea. First off LBJ didn't go to college, the highest level of play for Lebron prior to the NBA was against teams that had maybe 2 players who would end up starting for a D-1 team the next year. Often he played against teams that would have 0, his jump from year 1 to year 2 can be partially attributed to this huge increase in talent on both his team and in his competition. A better comparison (from an experience level) would be Carmelo Anthony who had very similar production in year 2 before making a sizable jump which he has maintained.

Lebron's rookie year > Durant's rookie year, likelihood of Durant matching Lebron's improvement = slim.
That wasn't my post you quoted, but I did use a LBJ number in my post so I just want to comment that I wasn't comparing the 2, but was just showing that 19 year olds don't play well in the NBA.

And again, the one exception to that was Kobe, and he only played 26 mpg on a team that featured Shaq in his prime.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:43 PM   #9894
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Rick Mahorn is about as unspectacular as it comes. I guess he was pretty tough on D, so that may work on meb's squad.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:45 PM   #9895
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I dig the Mahorn pick. I don't think he was BPA at that position and role, but he had to be up there.

I'd be a little worried about size on this team, though.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:01 PM   #9896
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Wow, back from a long weekend/vacation in NYC, lots of picks made.

RE: Mahorn.

Eh... I'll echo fanmail's sentiment of "unspectacular."

The thing about MEB's team is that you have Kiki, who fell off @ 29 & Elton, who just had a big knee injury @ 28. I think in terms of filling out that roster, you should be looking at players stats between ages 24-29. So the fact that Mahorn played well into his 30's is really insignificant for this team.

Anyway, Mahorn is nice during ages 24-29 - 10/10 @ 50%FG per 36, but there are at least 5 guys that I can find that will match or better his production/36, especially because you're lining him up at center. And the guys I'm thinking of will give you more blocks. The fact that Mahorn turns the ball over so little is offset by the fact that he's a total foulbox - 5.0 per 36.

The real problem I have though, is that you could get Mahorn or someone close to him next round, so you really should of went PG here - there are some quality guys left, but I think they are much less likely to be around next round than a banger @ center. Someone is going to have to set up Jesus & Kiki and feed Brand in the post.

D

Last edited by D104; 06-02-2008 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:04 PM   #9897
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

"Mahorn had a huge rear-end that he wasn't afraid to plow people over with."--Wikipedia

That has to count for extra points.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:53 PM   #9898
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I just finished my writeup. Now I have to hope GKA doesn't take my guy.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:06 PM   #9899
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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GKA's pick will be up by 8 PM EST IMO
QfFAIL
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:17 PM   #9900
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Yeah sorry. Just talked to GKA on the phone and he's debating between a couple players. Pick will be up soonish.
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