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Old 05-16-2008, 08:37 PM   #3451
EPiPeN11
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
What are you basing this on?

Career D-rating:
Barkley - 105
McHale - 106

McHale had slightly more defensive win shares during his prime, but it was only through age 29, after which Barkley owns him in this category. I know you are going to say it's not about the stats, but to make the claim that McHale's defense was light years ahead of Barkley's, you'll have to substantiate it somehow.
Another reason why defensive stats are sckewed. McHale always guarded the toughest player on D. Heck he even guarded SF's like Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins etc. (cause Bird couldn't, I bet you didn't know that McHale did that). Obv McHale was not meant to guard SF's, but he did anyway.

McHale was named to the first team all defensive first team 3 times during his short career, and 3 times to the all defensive second team.

Ask anyone with any NBA knowledge of that time era and they will tell u that Barkley was a way below average defender.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:39 PM   #3452
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Another reason why defensive stats are sckewed. McHale always guarded the toughest player on D. Heck he even guarded SF's like Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins etc. (cause Bird couldn't, I bet you didn't know that McHale did that).

McHale was named to the first team all defensive first team 3 times during his short career, and 3 times to the all defensive second team.

Ask anyone with any NBA knowledge of that time era and they will tell u that Barkley was a way below average defender.
okay mchale is god and should have been first pick now go away.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:40 PM   #3453
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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okay mchale is god and should have been first pick now go away.
Never said that obv (funny how when you guys realize u could be wrong u try to poke fun at someone), but he is right behind Duncan and is the 2nd best PF in this era's draft (unless you call Duncan a center, in which case McHale is the best PF).
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:40 PM   #3454
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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At 24, Sheed got 4.9 rebounds per game. In 29 minutes.

At his best you're going to get a 19/8 guy with average efficiency and good post defense. Most of the time you're gonna get a 16/7 guy. He's not the offensive force everyone thinks he is, and he's likely going to be the worst rebounding starting 4 in the league.
I DO want to echo this somewhat, because I did a huge overview on sheed (considered trading up for him) and my analysis revealed basically what you said: He's never been the offensive force that lives up to his reputation. What he DOES offer is a unique offensive packaging of abilities, which means he can play in a bunch of different systems, but he's actually (in this league) a poor 2nd option. Great 3rd option tho, obviously.

Funny but he's a MUCH better defender then offensive player, but I think most people knew this.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:42 PM   #3455
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Never said that obv (funny how when you guys realize u could be wrong u try to poke fun at someone), but he is right behind Duncan and is the 2nd best PF in this era's draft (unless you call Duncan a center, in which case McHale is the best PF).
okay........its pointless to argue.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:43 PM   #3456
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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okay........its pointless to argue.
ya cause u realized u were wrong but yet don't want to admit it, but whatever it's cool.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:44 PM   #3457
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Yeah! I agree Sheed is awesome defensively and versatile. He's basically a completely different player pre and post Mo Cheeks and he's good enough both ways that he can do whatever you need.

I think he fits better with Chauncey than Gary Payton simply because Chauncey shoots better, etc. But whoever you put around him Sheed will be cool.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:48 PM   #3458
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You know I'm bringing up this quote of yours if our teams ever match up.
(about TD guarding Shaq) As you should. It's not like it's a secret, Tim Duncan is the best defensive player possibly ever. Shaq vs Duncan in primes is basically the unstoppable force vs the immovable object.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:51 PM   #3459
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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i was looking at this thread last night and thinking sheed would be good value anywhere he went but that he would absolutely own with payton. top five pick thus far, i think.

sheed can stretch the floor (wtf at people complaining about his 3s, he shoots a lot of open ones and he makes them at >33%) which payton couldn't really, and this also helps since payton was an excellent post player himself.
Just want to echo this, so far cowboy's team is literally built to play the triangle offense. Post payton, put his bigs on the perimeter, and let hell fly.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:54 PM   #3460
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think it's interesting that Sheed, widely regarded as the best player of the famed Pistons starting five, went behind Billups and Ben, widely regarded as the worst player.
huh? are you saying ben was the worst player on that championship team? No. Not at all. All 5 guys they start are good, but at THAT point in time, Ben Wallace was the defensive anchor and incredible. Chauncey was their best all around guy, and they sorta ran the offense through rip.
Sheed is a character and a great/good player etc, but I dont think anyoen thought he was the best player on that team. (throughout the year this year I postulated he was their best player, but he's really not - it's chauncey's team)
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:01 PM   #3461
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Never said that obv (funny how when you guys realize u could be wrong u try to poke fun at someone), but he is right behind Duncan and is the 2nd best PF in this era's draft (unless you call Duncan a center, in which case McHale is the best PF).
I like McHale a lot, but you're only getting the reactions you are because much like you do with your favorite sports teams(all Boston team) you mix in some good arguments and some solid truths with perhaps the most extreme homerism on this board.

I've told you before that I think you're an excellent poster when not talking about your favorite teams, but a really bad one when talking about your favorite teams. Not surprisingly, I've agreed with a lot of your analysis in this thread when talking about other people's picks, but I think you way way overrate your own players.

I really don't get why some rational people are such homers.

McHale is a really good player, but hes a step behind Malone/Barkley for sure imo. Having only played a few non injury years getting big minutes is a bad thing for sure. Yes you could say that you'd have him play more minutes at a younger age, but one could also argue that he was injury prone and that means he'd get hurt earlier.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:01 PM   #3462
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

so Karl Malone, Barkley, kG aren't as good......okay maybe im crazy.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:02 PM   #3463
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

read the criticism you take in the boston thread too, you can't take any it's embarrasing.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:06 PM   #3464
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I like McHale a lot, but you're only getting the reactions you are because much like you do with your favorite sports teams(all Boston team) you mix in some good arguments and some solid truths with perhaps the most extreme homerism on this board.

I've told you before that I think you're an excellent poster when not talking about your favorite teams, but a really bad one when talking about your favorite teams. Not surprisingly, I've agreed with a lot of your analysis in this thread when talking about other people's picks, but I think you way way overrate your own players.

I really don't get why some rational people are such homers.

McHale is a really good player, but hes a step behind Malone/Barkley for sure imo. Having only played a few non injury years getting big minutes is a bad thing for sure. Yes you could say that you'd have him play more minutes at a younger age, but one could also argue that he was injury prone and that means he'd get hurt earlier.
He had one major injury in his entire career which wouldn't even have been major had he rested it (and even during the 5-6 years of him not starting, he still played decent minutes (28-33.6 mpg) for those years played 82 games every single season except for the last one where he played 68, he was VERY durable before he got his freak ankle injury and decided to play on it (had he rested he would have been fine).

McHale on offense is better than both Barkley/Malone and if McHale had been the focal point earlier in his career, and not played on his hurt ankle later, he would have def put up better numbers, and been considered a better player than both Barkley/Malone esp when taking defense/rebounding into account (McHale was a great rebounder also and would have averaged a lot more if he played more+wasn't on one of the best, if not the best rebounding frontlines in history).

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Old 05-16-2008, 09:06 PM   #3465
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ok, but part of this is that he has been playing with a team that doesn't really have other 3 pt shooters (Chauncy and..... ??), while they do have other guys who are good rebounders at their position (other Wallace before, Maxiel now, Prince, etc).
Rip and Tayshaun both shoot a higher percentage.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:08 PM   #3466
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Stockton and Malone is the exact thing I'm talking about in my last post. Guys were made to play with each other and thus their stats are better than they actually are. It's not like football where Randy Moss is going to make every quarterback he ever plays with look like he should be in the HOF. You put Kemp with a great passer (Payton was never that great of a passer) and he'll be putting up much larger numbers.
huh?

also - she wouldnt say that.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:10 PM   #3467
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Seriously? I mean Dwight Howard and Amare Stoudamire have already put up MVP type seasons and you're assuming that someone who has put up All Star type production for 1/4 of a season will be better? Thats not to mention other big men entering the league or guys like Bosh, Ming, etc.
we all have our flaws, and although kbfc is generally a great poster, his main flaw is he's gay for andrew bynum.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:14 PM   #3468
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Epipen

You said something about a five-second rule that the NBA made which was bad for Barkley, do you know what this rule was called? I assume you're not talking about three-in-the-key, that's been around forever.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:16 PM   #3469
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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huh? are you saying ben was the worst player on that championship team? No. Not at all. All 5 guys they start are good, but at THAT point in time, Ben Wallace was the defensive anchor and incredible. Chauncey was their best all around guy, and they sorta ran the offense through rip.
Sheed is a character and a great/good player etc, but I dont think anyoen thought he was the best player on that team. (throughout the year this year I postulated he was their best player, but he's really not - it's chauncey's team)
Yeah, they were all very good, but everyone always talks about how Rasheed is the leader and the go-to guy and the reason they are so inconsistent, while Big Ben went from being underrated to overrated to underrated again now that he has been fairly easily replaced. Even in your post it's not clear where you stand on this. I do think Ben is the worst of the five. His defense was amazing, but every one of them was at least good defensively so it's tough to argue for him when he is useless on the other end of the court.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:16 PM   #3470
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
Epipen

You said something about a five-second rule that the NBA made which was bad for Barkley, do you know what this rule was called? I assume you're not talking about three-in-the-key, that's been around forever.
It's called a 5 second rule....
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:19 PM   #3471
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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drafting bynum is like staking a guy who went on a 200 hand heater, seriously.
love the analogy and pretty good.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:19 PM   #3472
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Section XVI-Five-Second Back-to-the-Basket Violation
An offensive player in his frontcourt below the free throw line extended shall not be permitted to dribble with his back or side to the basket for more than five seconds.
The count ends when (1) the player picks up the ball, (2) dribbles above the free throw line extended or (3) a defensive player deflects the ball away.
PENALTY: Loss of ball. The ball is awarded to the opposing team out-of-bounds on the nearest sideline at the free throw line extended.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:23 PM   #3473
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Can someone explain the ramifications of this rule? When and why was it created? Why would someone dribble with their bac to the basket for so long instead of holding the ball with a live dribble (triple threat)?
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:25 PM   #3474
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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He obv didn't use 15 seconds on every play hence me saying up to 15 seconds etc.

Barkley's move was to get the ball in the post, use his wide ass to back down his defender very slowly while checking to see if a double team came. If it came hard he passed to the open man, if not he would just slowly back his man down until he was like right inside the paint and had an easy shot.
I already said why, and Barkley was the one who is the reason the NBA put the rule in place.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:26 PM   #3475
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

There is some serious Sheed overrating going on in this thread.
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