I didn't say that it was monumental. I'm just point out that it has happened time and time again. I never said it was definitive proof or anything...its just one small argument against Marbury. My view is that Marbury is the type of player who will put up decent basic bulk stats but hes not a very good players because he doesn't do things that win basketball games. All of these examples about teams getting better without him support my view, but they aren't definitive nor did I claim they were.


Going from 26 wins to 52 wins is huge. Jason Kidd is not THAT good.


Again I'm not saying that this proves anything. I'm just pointing out the trend.


Its funny that you incorrectly accused me of using a strawman argument above, and you're doing it right now. Hint: I never said that it was all on Stephon.


You're the one claiming that Stephon would perform better in playoff atmosphere games than he did in an 82 game regular season. I was just pointing out his stats in playoff games which very much contradict your viewpoint. Yes it is a small sample size, although that same sample size caused Andrew Bynum to be drafted in the second round.


He wanted to get away from KG early in his career. Hes simply crazy imo. Maybe he was salvageable at 24. I don't know for sure...but you don't either.


But under this logic couldn't I argue that any player would be much better? All we have to go on is what he has done in the NBA, and Stephon has been an inefficient scorer who sucks on defense and who is average all around in other areas. Claiming thats all going to change is silly imo. Hes had plenty of chances to be coached in the NBA.


And yet Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, and some others who havn't been drafted so I won't name them all have championship rings while guys like Stephon don't.


If by "threat" you mean that opponents will welcome Stephon doing all that because he scores at an inefficient rate then I agree with you. Otherwise you're just being affected by the "wow" factor of highlight reel plays.


He is a threat to dribble, and thats very rare to find. Good point there. LOL...seriously what does "a threat to dribble" even mean??? Does the coach go into the huddle and tell the players "Ok guys we're doing good so far, but watch out...these guys are a threat to dribble and if they start doing that then we may be in trouble!"

Again I don't understand your usage of the word "threat." He scores inefficiently. I guess thats a threat to you. He puts up decent assist numbers but will turn the ball over a lot too. Thats not that great imo.

The problem is that hes not very good at anything though. Yes getting him to shoot less would be a good thing. But even saying that "I'm going to try to get him to shoot a lot less" about your 2nd round pick is very telling. Your second round pick should be a big strength of your team, not someone you need to get to do less than he tries to do.

I do agree that some players change their games. However, Rodman being a scorer IN COLLEGE and not IN THE PROS is a horrendous example, especially considering he was beating up a small conference in college. Rodman didn't change his game, he just wasn't so much better than the competition anymore.

However when players change their game they have to have the skills to do so. Stephon does not have the ability to be a low turnover, efficient offensive player. And he certainly doesn't have the ability to be a good defensive player.

Again....what exactly is he good at?

Agreed. However his mindset, attitude, and skillset may say "20 shots per game."


Getting good defensive players is playing follow the leader?

Obviously I'm not saying that Bynum should go as high as he was on those lists. I was just pointing out how highly we all thought of his potential.

I think that I had him in the top 15

the basic reason why I don't like starbury is because the 2nd round is a little early to be picking someone that needs a lot of "what if" justifications when there is still such a wealth of at least semi-proven talent. its always hard to justify things using levels of hypotheticals, IMO. you could be right though, he sure had some nice potential

fwiw he was/is my 28th ranked pg

btw I have absolutely no clue who I want. I've gone back and forth on about 10 different players. So much depends upon who I think is going to drop to me in the 3rd/4th rounds.

WOWOWO terry cummings, mullin, alvin robertson all great picks. I was hoping robertson would drop down quite low, but I guess someone did a search for players whove won defensive player of the year awards to find him.

Terry Cummings has to be the steal of the whole draft. The man was amazing at the prime of his career. Great offensively and defensively.

Chris mullin also great pick. I see people questioning his defense, but he was a great defender. Some of you might not remember his style of defense, but you will remember rick fox, chris mullin was a better version of rick fox defensively. Didnt have speed, but had quickness, didnt have height, but had length. He had the strip below the waste move down so good, thats what lead to his 2 spg average.

i LOVE the stephone marbury pick

i don't think marbury is a bad player or anything and i def thought he would get drafted. but as like a back-up PG, not as the 2nd option on a team.

and i mentioned this already but seriously wtf, WHY did it take so long to draft mullin? is it because he's white?!

you guys are looking way too hard at the knick era for stephon marbury and his lack of "winning." marbury off the dribble was so unstoppable at one point in time.

Anyone else care to have me PM my pick? It's looking like I'll have to go in the office in an hour or so and Alex has yet to draft. I'll most likely be gone for the whole day..

Its posts like this that make me really wonder if you ever watch basketball at all. Boozer is one of the worst PF defenders in the league, Brand is one of the best. It's more than "Brand has more blocks"


Very good pick.


He had Lebron, who is an entirely different animal than Dirk.

pick has been sent to capone, ZBT, and Sharkdoctor.

Does anyone have the link to the spreadsheet? I thought I saved it in my google docs but I guess I didn't. I drilled through the thread for about 15 minutes looking for it but I still can't find it. Thanks in advanced.

It's in the draft only OP

oh man, tons of picks last night.

not so sure about pairing the booze with dirk. interior defense?
joneal has major injury concerns, but he could work well with isiah
i'm really curious to see how things will fill out with stockton and mullin.
starbury is a GREAT pairing with chuck.
i think robertson might've gone early, but that's going to be a strong defensive team and it's going to be relatively easy to find some good scoring throughout this thing.
don't really know enough about cummings to comment, but that seems like a solid pick.

So you are basing ur argument on not seeing him play at all, which is the same thing I did with McHale (which you were bashing me for).

Irony much?

Maybe if you actually watched the games u would realize why that was.

KG never guards the best offensive threat out of the PF/C combo on the other team. That job goes to Kendrick Perkins. Almost no teams have 2 great lowpost players, hence KG always ends up having to guard a very easy matchup.

I never said KG wasn't a good 1v1 defender, just that he isn't as great as you or most other people think. KG also struggles vs pick and pop bigs like a Rasheed Wallace etc. Where KG is great on defense is as a help defender (ie helping on other peoples men).

And the scoring thing I said about him is true. He can't take over a game consistantly like the elite scorers, and he can't get himself easy buckets out of the post. Heck Paul Pierce is a better offensive player than KG is (and no i'm not basing that on game 7, anyone who has followed the Celtics closley will tell you this).

He is an elite rebounder (never said he wasn't). Buit everyone already knows that anyway (he's not over or underrated in terms of his rebounding).

KG is obv great, but he is overrated.

Nevermind I found it. Thanks for nuthin !!!!

I don't think this was clear to ANYBODY, and it's sorta bs which will just lead to clever workarounds by bobbo.

Whos quote is that KC? That definitely isn't consistent with how things have been explained.

Agreed. No names. No hints. Its working better that way and makes it easy for everyone to understand.

Yeah I'm going to agree with KC and Clark - it's unfair to arbitrarily decide if "everyone has heard of" a particular player, and if they are a "popular player".

I'm happily taking Al Jefferson 19 picks after Bynum went. I'm kinda busy today, but I'll try to be on in the evening for the write-up and to defend the pick.

I don't have much of an opinion on the Jefferson pick, but comparing any pick at this point to Bynum doesn't exactly say a whole hell of a lot about that pick.

also I know this is late but seriously LOL at u HSP, picking Marbury after trashing other peoples picks LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL