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Old 05-20-2008, 06:14 AM   #5101
Assani Fisher
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
Yeah because 50 wins is monumentally greater than 45wins , and obviously the five more wins were undeniably due to Marbury leaving. Obviously if Marbury had stayed they only would have won exactly 45 wins again amirite?
I didn't say that it was monumental. I'm just point out that it has happened time and time again. I never said it was definitive proof or anything...its just one small argument against Marbury. My view is that Marbury is the type of player who will put up decent basic bulk stats but hes not a very good players because he doesn't do things that win basketball games. All of these examples about teams getting better without him support my view, but they aren't definitive nor did I claim they were.


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Okay, so you have provided evidence that Kidd is a better point guard than Marbury. Great. Nice strawman.
Going from 26 wins to 52 wins is huge. Jason Kidd is not THAT good.


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Wow could you really be this blatantly biased? The Suns got killed by injuries that year and started 3-15, they basically tanked the season halfway through. Before that they were 44-38 and made the playoffs.
Again I'm not saying that this proves anything. I'm just pointing out the trend.


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Yeah and the Knicks record ha absolutely nothing to do with Isiah Thomas and Larry Brown and Isiah Thomas being the biggest jokes of a coach and GM respectively in the "modern era", it's all on Stephon I'm sure. Just put Kidd on the Knicks and they would get 50 wins right?
Its funny that you incorrectly accused me of using a strawman argument above, and you're doing it right now. Hint: I never said that it was all on Stephon.


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Great, he was playing on lower seeded and clearly overmatched teams each time, and two of those years were at age 19 and 20, plus we're talking about a ****ing 18-game sample size, you're really going to hold it against him that he didn't have an epic playoff career based on all of this?
You're the one claiming that Stephon would perform better in playoff atmosphere games than he did in an 82 game regular season. I was just pointing out his stats in playoff games which very much contradict your viewpoint. Yes it is a small sample size, although that same sample size caused Andrew Bynum to be drafted in the second round.


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Maybe now he is, but like I said in the write-up, at age 24 he was definitely salvageable. Age 24 was right before he got traded to Phoenix.
He wanted to get away from KG early in his career. Hes simply crazy imo. Maybe he was salvageable at 24. I don't know for sure...but you don't either.


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My argument is that Marbury's low efficiency is a result of him being screwed over by being on dysfunctional teams, assclown coaches, and that if I get him at age 24 and surround him with a strong team as I plan to do, and a taskmaster coach, I'm going to get a significantly improved version of what you currently see with the Knicks.
But under this logic couldn't I argue that any player would be much better? All we have to go on is what he has done in the NBA, and Stephon has been an inefficient scorer who sucks on defense and who is average all around in other areas. Claiming thats all going to change is silly imo. Hes had plenty of chances to be coached in the NBA.


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Like many other people said earlier, an offensive zero is a major liability, because you basically have five guys guarding four
And yet Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, and some others who havn't been drafted so I won't name them all have championship rings while guys like Stephon don't.


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With Marbury I have a multi-dimensional thread that many other point guards don't provide: he's a threat to shoot, penetrate, cross-over, break fools' ankles, and what have you.
If by "threat" you mean that opponents will welcome Stephon doing all that because he scores at an inefficient rate then I agree with you. Otherwise you're just being affected by the "wow" factor of highlight reel plays.


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Defenses will have to respects him as a threat to dribble, pass, or score, and that will make it easier for the other players on my team to get open for easy shots.
He is a threat to dribble, and thats very rare to find. Good point there. LOL...seriously what does "a threat to dribble" even mean??? Does the coach go into the huddle and tell the players "Ok guys we're doing good so far, but watch out...these guys are a threat to dribble and if they start doing that then we may be in trouble!"

Again I don't understand your usage of the word "threat." He scores inefficiently. I guess thats a threat to you. He puts up decent assist numbers but will turn the ball over a lot too. Thats not that great imo.

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I'm not accepting as inevitable that he is going to take 20 shots a game regardless of what kind of team I have.
The problem is that hes not very good at anything though. Yes getting him to shoot less would be a good thing. But even saying that "I'm going to try to get him to shoot a lot less" about your 2nd round pick is very telling. Your second round pick should be a big strength of your team, not someone you need to get to do less than he tries to do.

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lot of players in history changed their game to suit their team's needs. Look at Dennis Rodman, he was a high scorer in college, but in the NBA he shot less and became a rebounding beast and pretty clearly a better overall player.
I do agree that some players change their games. However, Rodman being a scorer IN COLLEGE and not IN THE PROS is a horrendous example, especially considering he was beating up a small conference in college. Rodman didn't change his game, he just wasn't so much better than the competition anymore.

However when players change their game they have to have the skills to do so. Stephon does not have the ability to be a low turnover, efficient offensive player. And he certainly doesn't have the ability to be a good defensive player.

Again....what exactly is he good at?

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A Your rules were that we get an exact copy of the player at age 24. As far as I know there's nothing in Marbury's DNA that says "20-shots-per-game".
Agreed. However his mindset, attitude, and skillset may say "20 shots per game."


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OKAY, I GET IT, YOU ARE IN LOVE WITH DEFENSE, you trumpet all the defense cliches, fine. Playing "follow the leader" isn't my idea of building the best team.
Getting good defensive players is playing follow the leader?
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:15 AM   #5102
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by SHARK DOCTOR View Post
yes - I remember that thread very well...but I think this draft is a lil different when considering we're drafting players from 1980 to the present time...I guess its all perspective/opinion.
Obviously I'm not saying that Bynum should go as high as he was on those lists. I was just pointing out how highly we all thought of his potential.
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:21 AM   #5103
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Obviously I'm not saying that Bynum should go as high as he was on those lists. I was just pointing out how highly we all thought of his potential.
I think that I had him in the top 15
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:25 AM   #5104
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the basic reason why I don't like starbury is because the 2nd round is a little early to be picking someone that needs a lot of "what if" justifications when there is still such a wealth of at least semi-proven talent. its always hard to justify things using levels of hypotheticals, IMO. you could be right though, he sure had some nice potential

fwiw he was/is my 28th ranked pg
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:05 AM   #5105
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

btw I have absolutely no clue who I want. I've gone back and forth on about 10 different players. So much depends upon who I think is going to drop to me in the 3rd/4th rounds.
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:35 AM   #5106
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

WOWOWO terry cummings, mullin, alvin robertson all great picks. I was hoping robertson would drop down quite low, but I guess someone did a search for players whove won defensive player of the year awards to find him.

Terry Cummings has to be the steal of the whole draft. The man was amazing at the prime of his career. Great offensively and defensively.

Chris mullin also great pick. I see people questioning his defense, but he was a great defender. Some of you might not remember his style of defense, but you will remember rick fox, chris mullin was a better version of rick fox defensively. Didnt have speed, but had quickness, didnt have height, but had length. He had the strip below the waste move down so good, thats what lead to his 2 spg average.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:31 AM   #5107
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i LOVE the stephone marbury pick
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:49 AM   #5108
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i don't think marbury is a bad player or anything and i def thought he would get drafted. but as like a back-up PG, not as the 2nd option on a team.

and i mentioned this already but seriously wtf, WHY did it take so long to draft mullin? is it because he's white?!
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:54 AM   #5109
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

you guys are looking way too hard at the knick era for stephon marbury and his lack of "winning." marbury off the dribble was so unstoppable at one point in time.
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:23 AM   #5110
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Anyone else care to have me PM my pick? It's looking like I'll have to go in the office in an hour or so and Alex has yet to draft. I'll most likely be gone for the whole day..
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:24 AM   #5111
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I disagree that Boozer needs a great playmaker. Offensively I don't see any differences between him and Elton Brand who went much earlier and the pick was widely praised. Main difference overall is that Brand blocks shots.
Its posts like this that make me really wonder if you ever watch basketball at all. Boozer is one of the worst PF defenders in the league, Brand is one of the best. It's more than "Brand has more blocks"


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Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
Shark picked Terry Cummings
Very good pick.

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same. boozer did fine on the cavs at getting shots and easy baskets without a point guard.

He had Lebron, who is an entirely different animal than Dirk.
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:47 AM   #5112
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

pick has been sent to capone, ZBT, and Sharkdoctor.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:03 AM   #5113
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Does anyone have the link to the spreadsheet? I thought I saved it in my google docs but I guess I didn't. I drilled through the thread for about 15 minutes looking for it but I still can't find it. Thanks in advanced.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:04 AM   #5114
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

It's in the draft only OP
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:28 AM   #5115
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

oh man, tons of picks last night.

not so sure about pairing the booze with dirk. interior defense?
joneal has major injury concerns, but he could work well with isiah
i'm really curious to see how things will fill out with stockton and mullin.
starbury is a GREAT pairing with chuck.
i think robertson might've gone early, but that's going to be a strong defensive team and it's going to be relatively easy to find some good scoring throughout this thing.
don't really know enough about cummings to comment, but that seems like a solid pick.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:31 AM   #5116
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Moncrief's prime ended when I was 4 years old. What do you think?
So you are basing ur argument on not seeing him play at all, which is the same thing I did with McHale (which you were bashing me for).

Irony much?
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:34 AM   #5117
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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There was a stat mentioned here a few weeks ago where KG held the guy he was guarding to something lik 39% FG shooting this year. Do you still maintain that he doesn't play good one-on-one defense?

KG is 8th in Defensive Rating among active players and 2nd in Defensive Win Shares behind only Tim Duncan.

KG has twice led the league in PER and has the 4th highest PER among all active players behind only Shaq, Lebron, and Duncan.

Moreover hes led the league in rebounding for 4 straight years before this year.

And before this year KG had never missed more than 6 games in a season.

KG is not overrated. He ranks highly in nearly every single metric. One of the more complete players ever.
Maybe if you actually watched the games u would realize why that was.

KG never guards the best offensive threat out of the PF/C combo on the other team. That job goes to Kendrick Perkins. Almost no teams have 2 great lowpost players, hence KG always ends up having to guard a very easy matchup.

I never said KG wasn't a good 1v1 defender, just that he isn't as great as you or most other people think. KG also struggles vs pick and pop bigs like a Rasheed Wallace etc. Where KG is great on defense is as a help defender (ie helping on other peoples men).

And the scoring thing I said about him is true. He can't take over a game consistantly like the elite scorers, and he can't get himself easy buckets out of the post. Heck Paul Pierce is a better offensive player than KG is (and no i'm not basing that on game 7, anyone who has followed the Celtics closley will tell you this).

He is an elite rebounder (never said he wasn't). Buit everyone already knows that anyway (he's not over or underrated in terms of his rebounding).

KG is obv great, but he is overrated.

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 05-20-2008 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:54 AM   #5118
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Does anyone have the link to the spreadsheet? I thought I saved it in my google docs but I guess I didn't. I drilled through the thread for about 15 minutes looking for it but I still can't find it. Thanks in advanced.
Nevermind I found it. Thanks for nuthin !!!!
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:26 AM   #5119
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Maybe I've done a bad job of explaining this. I dunno because I feel like I've said it at lesat 5 times but people don't seem to get it.


It is ok to list a players name if you are making a point and need to list the name in order to make your point.

It is not ok to list a player(or hint at him in any possible way including his position/race/skillset/etc.) when you are trying to say that they should've been drafted, should be drafted soon, or would be a good fit being drafted by a certain team or at a certain pick.
I don't think this was clear to ANYBODY, and it's sorta bs which will just lead to clever workarounds by bobbo.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:32 AM   #5120
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Whos quote is that KC? That definitely isn't consistent with how things have been explained.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:43 AM   #5121
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I don't think this was clear to ANYBODY, and it's sorta bs which will just lead to clever workarounds by bobbo.
Agreed. No names. No hints. Its working better that way and makes it easy for everyone to understand.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:01 PM   #5122
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Maybe I've done a bad job of explaining this. I dunno because I feel like I've said it at lesat 5 times but people don't seem to get it.


It is ok to list a players name if you are making a point and need to list the name in order to make your point.

It is not ok to list a player(or hint at him in any possible way including his position/race/skillset/etc.) when you are trying to say that they should've been drafted, should be drafted soon, or would be a good fit being drafted by a certain team or at a certain pick.


Example:

-Before the Chris Mullin pick it would've been very much against the rules to say "I don't like the Peja pick because theres another guy who does what Peja does better still available imo."

-Before the Chris Mullin pick if you were in an argument about the quality of talent that Tim Hardaway had on his teams it would've been ok to list Chris Mullin(although you shouldn't comment on exactly how talented you think he is).


The reasons for this are simple. We all know the popular NBA players. Nobody here has never heard of Chris Mullin. However, we don't all have the same thoughts on the players. Therefore its ok to name the players before they are drafted. It is not ok to say when you think they should be drafted, what you think of their skillset, describe or compare their skillset, or make any post where the main focus is on an undrafted player.


If anyone still doesn't understand this then please let me know.
Yeah I'm going to agree with KC and Clark - it's unfair to arbitrarily decide if "everyone has heard of" a particular player, and if they are a "popular player".
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:06 PM   #5123
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm happily taking Al Jefferson 19 picks after Bynum went. I'm kinda busy today, but I'll try to be on in the evening for the write-up and to defend the pick.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:09 PM   #5124
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by .Alex. View Post
I'm happily taking Al Jefferson 19 picks after Bynum went. I'm kinda busy today, but I'll try to be on in the evening for the write-up and to defend the pick.
I don't have much of an opinion on the Jefferson pick, but comparing any pick at this point to Bynum doesn't exactly say a whole hell of a lot about that pick.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:13 PM   #5125
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

also I know this is late but seriously LOL at u HSP, picking Marbury after trashing other peoples picks LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
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