No one was thinking about the Bulls' analytics the way you are in 2024.. Most people didn't know about 11-1 conference record and that's never been a strong argument because it's obviously path-dependent like the easy path of this year's Celtics, 07' Cavs, or 02' Nets, to name a few - there are definitely a lot of gimmies in there.

So none of that was evidence.. Neither is having the best player when everyone perceives the team to be a 1-man team of 1st-timers with the inferior roster.. "Best player" has never mattered much in this common circumstance.

The more important things that people focused on back then and to a lesser extent today are experience and how good the team actually was.. The Lakers were much better on-paper for example - in addition to massive advantages at the 3 thru 8 spots, Magic and Worthy were All-NBA that year, while the Bulls only had 1 all-star in 91' and 1 perennial all-star... This massive talent advantage coupled a commensurate advantage in experience is why most people outside of the small betting world thought the Lakers would easily handle the Bulls.. People were simply used to seeing the Bulls lose and the Lakers win - they didn't look at it through 2024 goggles like we are.. Perhaps the betting world had better knowledge about the Lakers' injuries.

Regardless, the video showed 3 things about the 91' Finals - 1) jordan's combination of clutch production/efficiency, passing, defense and scoring (specifically mid-range production/efficiency) is unmatched - it's the greatest Finals performance of all-time 2) MJ guarded Magic for over 80% of possessions in the 91' Finals and greatly limited Magic's activity and stats compared to prior series or regular season 3) Jordan's mid-range production and efficiency was even better in 91' than the 2nd three-peat..

No one thought that the team with the better record, with the MVP, who just swept the Champions and who went 11-1 in the playoffs were favourites?

Well, I mean except for the guys setting the odds and people that bet on basketball I guess.

The Lakers had massive advantages in talent and experience, which were viewed as more important factors than the Bulls' paper tiger record and weak path - this is why most people outside of the small betting world felt the Lakers would beat the Bulls easily.

The 91' Bulls were a 1-man team with 1 star, while the Lakers had 2 All-NBA guys and massive advantage at the 3 thru 8 spots, plus one of the biggest advantages in experience ever seen in a Finals.. And both teams had the players that finished 1st and 2nd in the last 2 MVP races, except Magic was a 5x champion compared to 0x for MJ.

Accordingly, most people outside of Chicago and maybe Detroit thought the Lakers would win easily, as the commentary posted previously shows clearly - it was a nice find of footage by Uncut Hoops to remind everyone of how the Lakers' superior experience and roster was expected to easily handle the Bulls' newbie, 1-man team.

Btw, it should be mentioned that Pippen started his playoff career 0 for 5 with zero viable playoff series in five tries.. He finally played decently in the first 2 rounds of 1990 but then he had a historic choke in the ECF.. So heading into the 91' Playoffs, Pippen was not respected or a "star" by any means, while Worthy was All-NBA in 91' and had an utterly massive resume... Again, perhaps the betting world had insight into the Lakers' injuries, so they favored the Bulls.

So media is good again now?

It always enhances one's argument to use the opponent's logic against them (you guys always use All-NBA as an argument).

but I didn't just use the group-think of a few dozen media members to make my point - I also included the substance to support the point about the Lakers' superior roster, experience and Worthy's perceived superiority to Pippen - this is from the last post:

Pippen started his playoff career 0 for 5 with zero viable playoff series in five tries (88' and 89' Playoffs).. Then he had the historic choke in the 90' ECF.. So heading into the 91' Playoffs, Pippen was not respected or a "star" by any means, while Worthy was All-NBA in 91' and possessed a massive resume.. So the Lakers were perceived to have 2 stars and the Bulls only 1, while the Lakers also had massive advantage at the 3- thru 8 spots - the huge roster advantage coupled with a commensurate experience edge was more than enough for most people to think the Lakers would win easily, especially once they got past the "boogey-man" in Portland.

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Notable playoff series heading into the 91' Finals:

Worthy:

85' Finals............. 24 on 56%
87' WCF................ 31 on 60%
88' Finals............. FMVP
89' WCF................ 25 on 55%
89 Finals.............. 26 on 48%
84' Finals............. 22 on 64%
85' WCF................ 23 on 72%


Pippen:


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Worthy had 3 rings and FMVP compared to nothing for Pippen, who wasn't even voted by fans or coaches into the 91' all-star game..

So the Laker had 2 stars compared to 1 for the Bulls, while also having massive edges at the 3 thru 8 spots.. The massive roster advantage coupled with a commensurate advantage in experience caused most people to think the Lakers would beat the Bulls easily.

Is Jordan paying you for this?

So Worthy didn't have a notable series for 2 years before the 91 Finals. By that logic Warriors would beat the Celtics in a series because I could post a bunch of series where Green and Thompson were great over the last 7 years.

What are your thoughts of Pippen vs Worthy in the 91 playoffs leading into Finals? Who was playing better?

He's actually paid by Lebron as a false flag operation.

1990 1st Round vs Hakeem

Worthy........ 28.0 on 65%
Magic.......... 19.0 on 47%
Hakeem...... 19.0 on 44%


^^^ Worthy was the best player in the series over Hakeem and Magic

This wasn't uncommon - Worthy was frequently the best player in the series over guys like Isiah, Hakeem, Magic, Malone - WHOEVER - he went toe-to-toe with Bird and might've outplayed him in the 85' Finals... Meanwhile, pippen was clearly a secondary or even tertiary producer that was never expected to play on the same level as Malone, Hakeem, Bird, or anyone of that top caliber.

But back to the 1990 Playoffs.... After "Worthy-ball" dominated Hakeem's Rockets, Magic decided to be the leading scorer in the 2nd Round and average 30 ppg for the first time in his career.. This high-scoring ball-dominance that modern fans know as "bron-ball" caused massive upset loss to KJ's Suns in the 2nd Round.

We already know how ball-dominance lacks the brand of ball at carry-job volumes to beat top teams - this was never more evident in the 1990 2nd Round or 2009 ECF - a couple ball-dominators decided to be high-scoring ball-dominators and it yielded historic upset loss each time.. Since ball-dominators can't carry the scoring load against top teams, they need all-time scoring help like Kareem, Worthy, Wade, AD, Kyrie, Bosh, and Love..

In addition to their need for all-time scoring help, ball-dominators also need all-star spacers for their drive-heavy game like Mo, Allen, Korver, D-Lo, or premium spacers like Scott, Cooper, JR Smith, Mike Miller, Danny Green, KCP and many more.. So ball-dominators need all-time scoring and spacing help that expert jumpshooters like MJ, Curry, Bird or Kobe don't need.. Expert jumpshooters have great brand of ball at high scoring levels to beat top teams, and they can shoot over packed paints, so they don't need nearly as much spacing help.

Magic did a lot of the playmaking, while the Lakers had better bigs and better defensive ranking than the Bulls, but Worthy did the "closing" and scored the same as Pippen heading into the Finals - the more important understanding is that Worthy was a historic dominator and FMVP with multiple chips like Kawhi, while Pippen was a nobody and somewhat unknown like 2019 Siakam.

Pippen had simply taken 4 years to learn a role in a system that yielded 15-20 transition or flow points - this role is inherently inferior to the carry-job player and stats that Worthy was in the playoffs, where he was asked to outplay Hakeem, Bird, or Isiah in any given series.

On a stand-alone basis (no MJ), Pippen's robotic role in the triangle yielded a .500 team in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat in his first full seasons back.. We can debate which team (94' or 95') was a better representation of the Bulls without MJ - I think the placebo effect and inevitable downward trajectory was pretty clear - the Bulls were cratering in 95' after Pippen and his "closer" Kukoc were gifted the most ready-made, well-oiled machine ever in 94'.

Congrats Worthy for being able to play well against the 41-41 Rockets I guess and then being poor in the series that mattered.

So he scored the same as Pippen. Thoughts on the rebounding, assists, steals and general defense?

Worthy outplayed Isiah, Bird, Magic and all the best players in the league, as shown earlier.. I added the Hakeem series because somehow outplaying Isiah, Magic and Bird wasn't enough to show that Worthy was a higher-caliber player than Pippen.

But show me where Pippen outplayed a top 10 player in his 17-year career... I'll wait.. Pippen never did it while Worthy routinely did.

And again - high-scoring ball-domination is a primary reason for upsets when we look at NBA history, so it shouldn't be a surprise that Magic was so abnormally-destroyed by playing that way - keep in mind that MJ beat the same KJ-Suns that destroyed Magic's ball-domination, except with MVP Barkley added on top.. So that's how badly high-scoring ball-domination underperformed the expectation in the 1990 2nd Round - the Lakers should've stuck with what worked against Hakeem, aka Worthy-ball.. And btw, when you say that Hakeem had a 41-41 team - that's kind of how Hakeem did it, similar to Lebron but even a little worse - he always had crappy regular season records but infact had a long-standing organic juggernaut as we saw in 93', 94' and 95'.

So again, heading into the 91' Playoffs and Finals, Worthy was a historic dominator and FMVP with multiple chips like Kawhi - that's how he was viewed, while Pippen was literally a nobody and somewhat unknown like 2019 Siakam... And in my opinion, Pippen's player type is a Derrick Jones mold (a dunker) but he simply learned a role in a system that yielded 15-20 transition or flow points - this role is inherently inferior to the carry-job player and stats that Worthy had in the playoffs, where he was asked to outplay Hakeem, Bird, or Isiah in any given series.. And we saw Pippen's "derrick jones" player-type confirmed in Houston and Portland when he was worst than Jeff Green outside the system that he was coddled in.

lol at not commenting on my last post. I assume you are now conceding that Pippen was better than Worthy in the 91 playoffs.

It's okay. Bulls can be favorite against the Lakers and it makes no difference in the MJ GOAT argument.

Pippen and Worthy were about the same in 91. Worthy was on his way down and Pippen on his way up. Trying to say "but look at the resume" is obviously going to look better with more years.

If Draymond Green / Harden / insert other player that is on the downward trajectory and Shai played in a series this year, I'm picking Shai. Green / others having multiple championships, defensive players of the year, have previously outplayed other champions in years past doesn't mean much.

Role player stuff - no one cared if Luka, Lebron, Magic or Jokic played defense... No one cared if Kobe passed or Isiah rebounded.

It was just a luxury that Jordan was the best or nearly the best on both ends from 23 to 35 years old and it's easy to cherry-pick certain guys to hold to this same standard.. But no one really did that except Jordan, at least not for a long period of time.

Furthermore, Worthy had 5 series of 5+ APG and averaged 4.4 APG for his FMVP playoff run in 88' - this includes 4.4 APG and 7.3 RPG against the Bad Boys in the Finals.. Any great frontcourt player in the 80's knew how to bang inside - rebounding was not in any way a deficiency for him and he was a good passer as well, while being one of the best scorers ever - his combination of volume and efficiency is unparalleled, while is iso and clutch game is known for being among the best ever.. Heading into the 91' Finals, Worthy was a historic player and still in his prime, while Pippen was just getting started and would never reach the carry-job caliber that Worthy had.

No one thought Worthy was on a downward trajectory heading into the 91' Finals, and no one thought Pippen would win 6 rings that would make him a top 30 all-time player.

We have solid evidence of the consensus for how everyone felt in 1991:

Pippen wasn't viewed as an all-star by the fans, coaches or media (fans and coaches voted on the all-star rosters)... This is evidence of the consensus that you asked for earlier, while Worthy was All-NBA - of course the All-NBA is just media opinion, but Worthy was only 29 years old in 91', so a "downward trajectory" is absurd.

If you want to say that Worthy got injured and old in the 91' Finals - that's fine - but he wasn't viewed that way heading into the 91' Finals at 29 years old.. In hindsight, it was apparently a "thing" to get your career ended by 91' Jordan, since many guys were ended earlier than expected on that run, and while they were still in their prime - Isiah, Dumars, Rodman and Worthy were all below 30 years old, while Magic was 31 and runner-up for MVP.. Accordingly, the GOAT's 1st title run ended careers bitterly and earlier than expected for many top 30 players that were still in their prime - then he dominated for the next decade and made them watch.

People don't realize that previous eras saw natural development of incresaingly-superior brands of ball that would usurp and make obsolete previous brands.. Specifically, the Pistons overcame the superior talent of the Celtics/Lakers by developing a physical brand of ball, while the Bulls developed a finesse and ball movement brand that made the Pistons' physicality obsolete - that's why the Pistons never competed again after 91' and basically disappeared despite Dumars and Rodman peaking..

This organic development of better brands of ball doesn't exist in today's game, which is more of a talent-based approach, aka "more help needed", aka all-star team strategy.. The inferior chemistry and hoops instinct that today's players have is why they would get destroyed by the long-standing chemistry and effective basketball of previous eras.. It would be a much worse beat down than what our best faces against international comp.
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Pippen was an All-Star the year before and a snub that year. He has a higher WS, VORP and PER than Worthy in 91

In fact Scotties WS, VORP and PER that year was higher than any year in of Worthy's career.

He was also far better than Worthy on the defensive end (he was all NBA defense that year).

Scottie was good. On par with Worthy at worse. And he had definitely been better than Worthy in the playoffs in 91.

And he was young and getting better every season to date.

It's okay. Scottie can be great and MJ still the GOAT.

And before you say that WS, VORP and PER weren't a thing back then, who cares. It just shows that Scottie was good.

In this thread Worthy is the GOAT, Big Game Jamez, media darling.

NBA thread: not as good as Glen Rice

Wasn’t the same case for lebron in the 2007 ?
Wizard 41-41
Nets 41-41
Piston 53-29
Tough road to a final …
Then :
When it matters vs spurs ->

Game 1 14pts (4-16fg) .250
Game 2 25pts (9-21fg) .429
Game 3 25pts (9-23) .391
Game 4 24 pts (10-30fg) .333

But lebron gets goatish praise for that.

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Career Rankings

PER:

Anthony Davis...............3
Dwayne Wade.............21
Kyrie Irving'.................33
Kevin Love...................45
Chris Bosh'..................62
Scottie Pippen..........132
Horace Grant............185


WS/48:

Anthony Davis..........13
Horace Grant............55
Kevin Love.................57
Kyrie Irving...............68
Dwayne Wade..........70
Chris Bosh................76
Scottie Pippen........129


True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.........41
Kyrie Irving..............84
Chris Bosh...............89
Kevin Love...............92
Dwayne Wade.......183
D Rodman..............244
Scottie Pippen........NR top 250
Horace Grant..........NR top 250


OBPM:

Anthony Davis...........12
Kyrie Irving................13
Dwayne Wade...........25
Kevin Love.................29
Scottie Pippen...........90
Chris Bosh...............102
Horace Grant..........107


BPM:

Anthony Davis........12
Dwayne Wade........22
Kyrie Irving.............32
Scottie Pippen........35
Kevin Love..............48
Chris Bosh............134
Horace Grant.......176


Peak VORP

Dwayne Wade....... 19
Kevin Love............. 74
Scottie Pippen......102
Anthony Davis..... 140
Chris Bosh........... NR top 250
Kyrie Irving.......... NR top 250
Horace Grant....... NR top 250

Notice that all the real stats that are measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, WS/48, TS%, etc) correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams.

From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:

What players were most impacted by the changes?

Including playoffs, only one player saw his career BPM change by 3.0 or more. That'd be the aforementioned Stockton.... BPM 2.0 says "elite steals, good defensive teams = good defender."

Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

Lebron fans...







Do you think Hornacek is better than Klay?

Because the numbers say that Klay is a JOKE compared to Hornacek:

Regular Season

Hornacek.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay'............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay'............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

Pippen had weak PER, WS/48, BPM and VORP (see stats above), even though these stats overrate steals, blocks and assists in the formula.. So despite Pippen's game favoring these formulas, he ranked far below AD, Wade, Kyrie or Love in these stats, as shown above.. I'm surprised you went the "PER" route with Pippen.. Are you aware that Pippen had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM)??.. Imagine dragging a teammate with 16.9 PER, 2.0 BPM, and 50% TS to the title - that's what MJ did in the 93' Playoffs - Pippen's PER, WS/48, TS, and pace-adjusted scoring was less than 14' Wade.

And Pippen was snubbed from the 91' all-star game because people realized he wasn't that good after the 1990 season - they realized that they made a mistake and corrected it in 1991.. Pippen only started making all-star teams again after winning titles - the winning spotlight restored his reputation even though he was still playing like garbage (17-20 system points on bad efficiency).

Larry Nance was better based on the advanced metrics like PER or WS/48, while also averaging about 3 blocks for his career - he was a Pippen-caliber player but lacked the winning spotlight (6 chips) to make him top 30 all-time like Pippen.

Ultimately, Pippen was a Derrick Jones-mold of player (just a dunker) who took 4 years to learn a role in a system that yielded 15-20 points on bad efficiency - this doesn't compare to a franchise player like Worthy that could carry teams and outplay the best players in the league like Hakeem, Isiah or Bird.. There's no comparison between a dunker like Pippen and goat-level scorer like Worthy.

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Playoffs - Pippen vs Rice

98' Rice............... 23 on 44%
98' Pippen'......... 18 on 44%

99' Rice............... 18 on 55% (3rd option)
99' Pippen'......... 18 on 32%

Worthy often played on the same level as Bird, Hakeem or Isiah:

1985 Finals

Worthy...... 23.7 on 56%
Bird........... 23.8 on 44%


1990 1st Round

Worthy.......... 28.0 on 65%
Hakeem........ 19.0 on 44%


1989 Finals

Worthy......... 26 on 49%
Isiah............. 21 on 45%

But his stats and accolades were suppressed by being on a stacked team with 2 top 5 players of all-time





The best way to determine how good a player is would be to ignore stats and accolades, and just focus on their actual performance and demonstrations of high-level play.. This would include Worthy outplaying Bird, Isiah, and Hakeem in many series, and even his own teammates like Magic and Kareem...

Otoh, Glen Rice never outplayed anyone except maybe Scottie Pippen (see stats above)... Whooptiwhoop - the majority of SF's outplayed Pippen in his playoff career..

For the most part, Pippen only outscored opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ, otherwise he was destroyed at the SF matchup in the majority of series in his playoff career.
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Stop knocking KD's rings because what's wrong with KD's unprecedented advantage when Lebron enjoyed an unprecedented advantage for 6 years as the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team) from 2011-2016??

What's the appropriate way to respond to a rival that manufactured 3 chips in 6 years and favored talent (preseason favorite) for 6 straight years (11-16')?

Accordingly, there's nothing wrong with joining a hot regular season team like the Warriors that otherwise had a normal organic roster of 1 franchise player and a secondary-producing sidekick.. Anything less would be insufficient to overcome the massive talent edge of Lebron's latest "big 3".

So it's clear that kd did EXACTLY what he had to do: