When this thread started ~11 years ago, if someone had told us LeBron would have crossed 40k I’d have pictured it as a Vince Carter esque 43 hanging around the league like a bad smell padding stats.

Not 39 year old All - NBA still the best player on his team. Been a wild ride.

45k? It looks possible. We just don’t know yet whether he’ll sign up for additional years where he isn’t the man on a team. Could be one or two more seasons and he’s done, that’s what I expect at this point.

What on earth are you babbling about? MJ never won anything without Pippen and we already did this analysis:

If you extend this beyond championships, MJ's case looks even worse. For example:

Playoff Series Wins

MJ without Pippen: 0
Pippen without MJ: 3

Clearly, Pippen had more success without MJ than MJ did without Pippen. And no one is arguing that this means Pippen > MJ, it's more that it's absurd to attribute championships or playoff success to a single individual without understanding other factors.

And the biggest factor here is coaching - it's very difficult to win multiple championships and if you look at dynasty-type runs, coaching is usually a big part of the success. Lebron's impact here is undeniable - every single player he's played with talks about how Lebron is essentially another coach and he's directing players and breaking down plays, on the court, during timeouts and in the film room. On the other hand, MJ's career prior to Phil Jackson (both his on-court performance and his interviews) strongly suggests that he didn't really understand what it takes to win and needed high-level coaching, not just for his teammates but for himself to play winning basketball.

How can you be this clueless in every single way? Passing is more than just assists, being a great point guard takes more than just passing, you can turn over the ball doing things other than passing, assists don't adjust for 3-point shots and being risk-averse wrt turnovers doesn't necessarily maximize offense.

Most crucially, we can track efficiency on shooting to see how volume translates to positive offense but there are no box stats that track passing efficiency. When you look at tape to analyze this, most analysts conclude that Magic, Nash & Lebron are all ahead of Stockton as passers, even though Stockton has the highest assist rate in NBA history.

I really don't understand why you continue to embarrass yourself - is it really not obvious to you that you have absolutely no useful thought on this matter? Average 9-year olds are far more lucid than you are.

And it's confirmed by his Washington stint, where he couldn't build an effective roster across multiple years even with the luxuries of choosing a coach and adding himself on a minimum deal.

When I watch highlights, MJ looks like he's the best player ever.

Eye test>382 pages of this thread.

Some time it really is as easy as that.

So fitting that LBJ got his milestone in a losing effort. The only # that matters is 6. Until LBJ gets 6 he is Jordan's caddy.

Bill Russell > MJ?

The goat!!! Lmao

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/InWzpmLA6Yg

Rings as the best player

Russell won a bunch of chips as 5th option averaging 12 ppg

Since the ABA merger or since the inception of 3-pointer basketball (modern era), Jordan has the most rings as the best player and arguably twice as many as anyone else (it can be easily argued that Duncan and Lebron were the best player on only 3 of their chips).

That’s the point isn’t?
Anyone thinking at that time LeBron was already the goat should be discarded.

Fallguy sorting by ppg when evaluating the most impactful defensive player of all-time.

Too many nick wright in this thread …

People looked at the quality of his play in 2013 and his all round contribution and understood they were watching the most impactful basketball player of all time. But there were caveats around having to do it for longer.

The 3 - 1 comeback against one of the greatest teams ever in 2016 leading both teams in points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks sealed it for me. The most impact ever in a finals to win a finals in a situation it had never been won before.

Durant joining Golden State was a disappointing event for the sport, but LeBron’s full on transition to point guard in 2020 and ability to win Finals MVP in a new role at 35 cemented the case.

He’s now just going long, shovelling on piles of evidence on an insurmountable case for “best career”. LeBron was arguably the best ever 28 and 31 year old basketball player of all time. He is without doubt the best 39 year old player.

You might be right to say that the argument for LeBron was thin 11 years ago when this thread started. But it’s also very clear to me that all the ‘if he can do X over the remainder of his career’ caveats have been roundly delivered upon.

I actually think the longer we go the more the conversation becomes irrelevant. LeBron is the most impactful all round player with the best career who brought an unmatched dedication to the sport across a full quarter century in the public consciousness. MJ’s argument distills down to “best peak” or “most cultural impact”. But it’s harder and harder to compare. MJ had the one coach he could win with for the one organisation, couldn’t make the playoffs with full control elsewhere. LeBron has won a title in three different places with three different coaches and three different supporting casts across the pre and post 3 point / spacing modern era.

It’s not really comparable anymore. LeBron’s scope, impact and complexity of career dwarfs MJ’s.

A timely video!

When this thread started ~11 years ago, imagine telling the LeBron GOAT crowd he would only win 2 more Championships despite only being 29 at the time, when he would team hop to teams that worked best for him. They would have lolled at it. "No chance he only wins 2 more". Disappointing.

Well we watched it play out, we understand why and the context around it.

I know you appreciate that context too, it doesn’t take away from how dominant that Golden State team was. They were a juggernaut and I genuinely think the 2017 version is the best team EVER assembled.

I got chills watching this. He could play til he's 45 and still average 18/5/6.

Just a question of whether he wants to. AD has fallen off this year so he’s very much the man in LA. Would he sign up to play years where he is the second or third option, would he sign up to play years where he isn’t on the super max. I think he retires after a year where he is no longer the dude.

He loves basketball. He's gonna be the Tom Brady of Basketball.

I hope we have years left, I really do.

LeBron is a better basketball player than Jordan, that's why he doesn't need to match RANGZ to overcome Jordan.


Same reason Jordan > Russell even though Jordan has almost half the number of RANGZ.

He was a LeBron hater 11 years ago if you go back in the posts and still a hater today.

When I watch highlights, LeBron looks like he is the best player to ever live.

Eye test > 382 pages of this thread.



Nostalgic youtubez binge watching highlights is fun but sorry that doesn't make Jordan > LeBron.

MontrealCorp and Twog/fallguy are in the same boat. It's just random arguments thrown together that don't make sense.

Jordan stans cannot concede that LeBron is better at ANYTHING vs Jordan. The reason is that they know deep down LeBron is a better basketball player. Better passer, better at rebounding, better court vision, better transition player, more versatile player, better at 3 point shooting.

Any concession will break that religious fanaticism that says Jordan is God and everyone else is human.