lmao mj had pippen his first 3peat
then retired
then the bulls won 55 games without him in what you accurately point out was a much tougher eastern conference than what lebron played in
so yea he had pretty decent help in his first 3peat

The world when Jordan played his last game in 2003:






The world when Lebron entered the league in 2003:

mj did not dominate a decentish pistons team that is about on par with the raptors teams that lebron crushed.

mj never faced a team nearly as tough as the spurs or kg, allen, pierce, rondo celts.

ppl love to say zomg ALL STARS kevin love and kyrie irving but are they gonna be HOF? lol.

and I think Pippen is a nice illustration. in todays nba he would be mediocre role player. the competition was so weak back then that he is now considered an all time great top 50 player.

Think about all stars MJ played with and won and how many all stars lebron played and lost and comeback to me.

That’s more about the system lebron played with his team compare with Jordan about how many win and lost when Jordan and lebron leaves a team ...

Jordan could of done more ( like he did early years) but he was able to fit in a system Contrary to «*lebron*system*» .
So yeah when the lebron leaves, the system crumble contrary to Jordan that could fit in a team system .

And it’s provably due to bad coaching as well for lebron side.

So the argument is that Jordan was so good that made his team win 55games without even playing.

Ok bruh. Lock it up

lebron has dragged dleague trash to the finals
he lost a finals series 4-2 where mathew delladova was their second best player after irving got hurt in game 1 (which they lost) to gsw who then won 73 games.
he did suck against dallas in the finals so critisize him for that.

when lebron leaves the teams fall apart bc they are either god awful (clev) or in the case of miami wade was well past his prime.that's not a knock on lebron- it shows how good he is.

the bulls winning 55 games without jordan doesn't mean Jordan fit into a team system. scottie pippen was a phenomenal player.
it's actually funny the lengths people on jordans side will go when they don't even need to.

i agree jordan was probably better, but he also had way better help than lebron. do you really think he would have 6 rings if he had pure aids for teammates his first 8 years in the league? get real.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1095533694796759040
just talking bull*****

Olds being Olds ITT. LeBron is better than MJ. Please STFU with "but 6-0". Making 8 finals in a row with no help is more impressive. Jack is not better than Tiger. Ruth and Mays don't compare to Bonds.

Bonds and Tiger were both from MJs era!!! And both were better at their sport than any current baseball or golfer are now.

Lebron fans do this thing where they act like MJ played at the same time as Babe Ruth, it's how you know they have no real argument so they make up facts.

No Help!!! Lebron teams had 3 of the 5 best players in the East ON HIS TEAM the majority of those 8 years. 2018 was the only year out of the 8 where he had no help.

Another example where the Lebron side has to distort or completely fabricate the truth.

This guy gets it

When I hear "greatest" of all time arguments I find that so many times people either dont understand or have a different meaning to the term great than me.

When I think of "greatest" of all time I think of who dominated their sport during the era in which they played the most. This often leads into a who accomplished/won the most championships/MVPs etc. With this in mind, MJ crushes Lebron in every measurable statistic (except maybe finals appearances).

With that in mind, I also think that the "greatest" player doesnt always mean the best. Take for example Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. Few would dispute that Tom Brady is the "greater" if not "greatest" qb ever. Alot of people would argue though that at their peaks, when they are on their game the most, Rodgers is the better qb to Brady.

I mean that guy is exaggerating, especially in regards to the early Heat years. But LeBron literally never had 3! Of the top 5 players in the East on his team a single time. At no point was Chris Bosh or Kevin Love a top 5 East player on LeBron’s team....I don’t even think that’s debatable by any metric. Neither made a single all-NBA team with LeBron, and Love missed the all star team twice.

Wade was definitely a top 5 East player in 2011 and almost certainly one in 2012. 2013/2014 he was not.

Kyrie is difficult to value, but he was probably top 5 East player in 2015, but he was injured for much of the playoffs/Nearly all of the Finals that year. In the following years (esp 2016) he put up historic playoff performances, but battled injuries in 2016 as well. By 2017 I can’t see putting him above Giannis/PG/Butler, etc since he sucks so much on defense. It’s a fringe case there but even with the benefit of the doubt he never had 3 of the 5 top players in the conference on his team.

If by "all-star" level, we define as a top-24 player in the league, Lebron rarely had top-24 players in the league on his team. Wade was probably one the first year they played together, but never again and Bosh likely was a fringe top-24 player 2 or 3 of the years they played together. Also, Lebron's best teammates generally didn't fit well with Lebron (or really with any ball-dominant top player) - he never had a Scottie, a Draymond, a Horace Grant, a Rodman, an Iguodala or a Klay. He was stuck with Wade/Love/Kyrie who are all ball dominant and in case of Wade, non-spacing wing and in case of Kyrie/Love, defensive liabilities. Chris Bosh is the sole exception but even his skill set wasn't as complementary as it could be as the game transitioned towards the perimeter - he didn't develop a 3-pt range until after Lebron left. I mean relative to the time and what it takes to compete in today's game against the likes of Golden State, Lebron's teammates were almost always lacking.

It's important to put these players in context - MJ's teammates were perfect compliments to nearly any top player in the game at the time. Lebron's teammates weren't as complimentary and also had skills that weren't conducive to winning championships in today's game. I mean, Wade and Bosh's offensive games simply didn't cut it towards the end of their time together. Love and Kyrie's defense weren't enough either.

I mean I'm an old, from Jordan's era - there are only three reasons why this even a debate 1) people from my generation or older, who don't watch the game anymore are defensive about their precious memories and reflexively defend anything from their youth; 2) rings; 3) Lebron's accumulated a bunch of haters, from him not having an ideal media personality, moving around a bunch, socially progressive rhetoric and white people being mad at an outspoken young black man.

Thx for your enlightenment candy bar.
That’s what I like about you and others thinking like that .

Lebron is the goat because his got the best skill in all nba history and can do everything thing right ?
Than failure on lebron comes by not having the right teammates to compliment his style of play ?

I mean if your the goat , shouldn’t you be able to adjust with what you have ?
Your the goat with the best skills ever in every aspect of the game right ?
How u explain his failure than ?

Every top players in the world don’t wait to have the right teamates .
Since they have all the talents in the world and the skill set for it , they should be able to adjust to make the team better , no ?
Saying lebron from Miami’s years , except of last year and 2017, not having enough talents or chemistry around him to win is totally insane .


Again another excuses for lebron ....
Facts : MJ didn’t have any weakness and so was not terrify of the free throw line in the endgame ...
Can’t say the same thing for lebron throughout his career ?
Ho yeah better make the right play and let a weaker player to have all the pressure in the world to make crucial shot with 20 secs to go or less ...
Afraid to attack the basket with his giant size to force them to foul him to the free throw line .
That’s goat like ..
Yeah lebron better now for that but only recently while during that time Jordan was already accumulations all the accolades and championships at his age ...

My point is if your the one and only goat , most of the time you should be the reason of your success and failure .
It’s so easy to identify this whit MJ while with lebron it isn’t ...

What would have happened if MJ never got Pippen or Phil? We can do what ifs all the time, but a lot of things went absolutely right for MJ and so has Lebron. It's not excuses, it's realism. It's really hard for you guys to be objective, that's pretty obvious.

Apparently Wade, when he was an All NBA third team player (in 2012 an 2013), wasn't a top 24 player in the league.

smh.

Also, apparently when Wade scored 19ppg while shooting 55% from the field, didn't cut it offensively.

what does mj mean?

lol.

Lebron fans next year: Anthony Davis was a fringe top-20 player. never did anything until he teamed up with Lebron.

fwiw when AD goes there next year, LeBron will become the number 2.

FWIW I have no problem with this and even saying lebron could have more abilities, talent and all !
It’s subjective and it’s possible .
But talking about the goat imo is about realism like u said !
Results matters , not potential !
And the reason is even with all the talent in the world , if u choke well u ain’t as good as u are if u can’t perform top level at the highest stage .

Like I said , someone would say lebron is more talented fine but no way lebron performed as good as Jordan and goat is about performance , accomplishments and success....



What’s the difference between beliefs (subjectivity) and facts ( results through experiment ) ?
It’s the fact of acting and on it and see the results which mean play the freakin game .
MJ did better defensively and on offensively with better team success , what can u had ?

Excuses to make belief lebron is better ?

You literally have 1 run where Jordan ran perfect (his team had no serious injuries to key players including MJ is one big example and the decline of some of his toughest competitors). That's all you have. You guys are extremely results oriented, it's embarrassing for someone on a poker website.

Again, you have a really tough time removing MJ from his teammates/system/coaching. Team success isn't always entirely dependent on your best players' ability/success. MJ clearly declined (in the 2nd peat) and the Bulls still won, sometimes easily. The Bulls were the best team of the time, and MJ was great. But he also had a great situation, honestly the best in his era to succeed. Honestly the best MJ was likely pre-Pippen Bull's MJ but obviously MJ didn't win it all at the time.

As much as you love to give credit for everything going right in Chicago at the time to MJ, it's clearly has a lot to do with stuff outside his control.

But you need to look at results. Poker is not the same as basketball. You need to look at the reality that we are actually in.

But let's play your game.

If you believe that we are being too results orientated, why give LeBron so much credit for beating the 73 win Warrior team? It's basically LeBron's crowning moment isn't it. But, we're poker players. LeBron wins that series 1 time out of 20 once down 3 to 1. Everything had to go right for LeBron to win it.

So, if we are deducting **** from MJ, why aren't you saying the same thing for LeBron?

As you say "You guys are extremely results oriented, it's embarrassing for someone on a poker website."

I never mentioned Lebron but that's fine he did run hot once and he's also run extremely bad especially with the formation of the Warriors. I fine with taking that line. The reality is MJ ran like god. I get it, we love the fact that he's 6-0. Would it be that much worse if he was 6-1? or 8-2? Or even 5-1. There are likely runs where Jordan could easily have gone 0-0 in finals. MJ to me is great regardless and I still feel titles are a horrible metric when defining the GOAT. It's literally the easiest thing to claim and also one of the the weakest in a team sport. His stats are ridiculous though, the best of all time. I'd much rather concentrate on that.