Also you never answered - are you this loser or do you follow online self-help gurus like him because your life has never recovered from your basketball failures?

I think this lopsided general consensus is far less about people being slow to recognise someone new/clinging to eras and far more about MJ vs LeBron specifically. LeBron is super unlikable (like don't get me wrong, he seems a good enough human, but he's cringe AF and that's like the cardinal sin for a sports idol), while the insane hero worship for MJ is possibly unmatched in all of sports. Just don't think LeBron GOATers will be anywhere near as attached to their guy.

Biggest barrier for Wemby IMO is that his GOAT argument will come a lot from the D side, which has always been massively underrated.

yeah, labald is a dork ass loser. stat-padding carlton banks

DBPM seems particularly useless to me. Some function of defensive rebounds, steals and blocks isn't remotely going to tell you who the best defenders are

This is a good point. I guess Kareem and Bill Russell are good examples as well - people were quick to crown MJ even though I don't think he realistically ever passed Kareem or Russell (and if he did, certainly not in any kind of convincing way). MJ being the only one not being outspoken about politics probably helps him a ton here.

I guess this might have been a big issue for Lebron vs MJ as well - frankly a lot of people just don't see past scoring.

Even if a center has GOAT value, his game (at least historically) has never had the beauty and skill of a guard. Like Shaqs peak was easily better than Kobes, but would anybody ever want to sat that Shaq is better at basketball than Kobe? At some point deriving so much value from your size is less impressive. A guy like Jordan looks better considering he was just basically average size (for an NBA player)

MJ played with trash for a few years. Then they got Pippen. The bulls front office was so much better than the Cavs front office. Comparing the 2 is a joke.

Remind me when Jordan played with garbage for 7 years,then left and had the team win 20 games without him.

Oh let's right he quit on his team under contract, and then they won 55 without him. But LeBron is the devil for actually playing out his entire contract and then leaving a team with an inept front office. Got it.


LeBron gets so much **** for playing out entire contracts,not demanding to be traded or anything like that before getting to play with talented teammates. Imagine the vitriol he'd get if he quit on his team under contract,or demanded a trade to play with shaq on draft night /demanded a trade under contract (the latter 2 Kobe moves) after running Shaq and PJ out of town. It would actually be pretty incredible.

I'm curious - how long exactly was he supposed to rot in Cleveland just bc he was from there and they happened to have the number 1 pick when he was a no brainer #1.

10 years? 15 years? 20 years?

I mean it's fine if you think Jordan on the court was the better player but you want to shackle LeBron ,give Jordan and other greats hall of fame teammates and then say "see LeBron can't win without help". It's completely clown ****.

Oh wait I forgot LeBron had 100 year old Shaq and Antoine Jamison for 25 games hahaha . Then Jamison led them to that legendary 20 win season when LeBron left.

It's even worse than that. For example, assists are given a fair amount of weight in dBPM (especially for centers) purely due to statistical correlation. BPM is designed to predict impact stats (i.e. those based on on/off) while only using box score stats, so it will pick up patterns that exist in the data.

Yeah, kind of like these were excellent players who got their chance to shine when a guy who took 25 shots a game was removed from the team.

The front office was so great in Chicago ,it took 6 years of mj to have an AS caliber player which he personally develop into because he just wanted to win so badly (pippen) .
When the bulls was ever a powerhouse and great management without mj ?
1995 ?
Post 1998?
Pre 1984 ?

As if only LeBron left Cleveland to explain such a bad record ?
Some key players got injured and traded too .
And what so special about it anyway , we know Lebron is an impact player like MJ is for their team ?
When MJ broke is foot , the bulls only made 21 wins in 64 games shrug.
Ps: actually but more games since mj only played only like 10m in many games …


That claim mj quit on his team is so funny , Especially after giving them 3 titles .
but hey if u believe it’s ok .
Ps: that’s probably why he came back to his old team when they struggle …strange quitting )


Did mj ever ask much of the management too?
Demand be traded or w.e when the bull sucked ?
What’s point u try to make here ?


He had the right to leave , no problem there for me .
I’m not sure what u try to say here .


Shaq was old but was he really worst then Grant pre 1991 ?

Modified thread title is unacceptable. Lechoke can rack up all the stats he wants any intelligent man drafts prime MJ before prime LBJ. Longevity doesn't close the gap.

So why couldn’t they repeat their great performance elsewhere like just the year after or afterwards in their career at all ?
Please don’t tell me the story of the piston Detroit they were old at 28 ….

U got 3 guy that peak the same 1 year , only 1 year , never could repeat anything close elsewhere but it’s because mj they couldn’t repeat it ?
It’s probably more about the lasting work ethic mj had bring to the team ….discoceribg yeah even hard practice do not garantes winning without a MJ .

we have a new CO-MVP!

We could use some intelligent MJ arguments tbh, welcome.

Donald Trump became president, Americans love gigantic *******s. Jordan was able to mask how much of a degenerate ******* he was by winning, it was pre-internet level media also helped.

I'm trying to imagine how high I'd have to be to believe this crap.

Yea wow. I knew about the pattern/correlation stuff for BPM in general but kinda just assumed the dPBM/oBPM was more a split on which stat was contributing. Thinking about it for longer than 5s, obviously what you're saying makes sense. But yea, seems awful

I thought this was consensus. Are there really people who think Kobe was better at basketball than Shaq?

Trash is uncalled for. Magic, Stockton, KJ, Isiah, Price, Jackson. Not saying they were as a great a group as we've seen in primary ball handlers in recent years. But trash is way off.

55 wins in 1994 and lost to the peak Knicks in seven. Grant/Kukoc/BJ is hardly a superteam.

I think MJ is the GOAT, but slandering Pippen in the process is bullshit.

50% of casuals seem to think Kobe is 2nd only to Jordan. Facebook NBA discussions are full of people who have him at #2 all time.

But my point was that the only thing Shaq was better at then Kobe was 'being big' so while his effect on the game was greater, nobody will ever say 'Shaq!' as they throw a piece of garbage at the bin. And so Kareem and Russell and Chamberlain same thing, their effect on winning games was probably greater than Jordan or LeBron, but I don't think in general people want the basketball goat to be someone whose greatest asset is being 7 feet tall. It's so unrelatable to 99.99% of the fans. And generally a lot less exciting to watch.

Shaq had amazing footwork and was an underrated passer. In today’s spaced out nba he’d average 6.5 apg MINIMUM.

shaq was amazing to watch. proof: lets watch him bully some college kids




and mj would average 70/30/20/10/5 today (at age 61)

Pippen didn't play in the closeout Game 6 of the 89' ECF and Jordan just needed about 10 points from Pippen to win that game, or Game 7 the following year in 1990.

And when MJ finally started winning from 91-98', that's what he got from Pippen - about 10 points in many games or 15.7 on 40% in the 96' or 98' Finals.... 19 on 42% for his Finals career.

People are just results-oriented by thinking Pippen must have been good to win 6 titles but in reality he was just providing the 10 points that he didn't provide in 89' or 90'... or thereabouts.. Pippen averaged 16/7/5 on bad efficiency for his career, but 6 chips inflates him to all-time status

Maybe in LA?