So hypothetically, if Arse win the league cup and get relegated, they've had a better season than if they came 2nd and came runner up in the Europa League?

JD has ended a moribund summer period. Good job.

Still not convinced Baids isn't playing the long-troll game on this one.

Unbelievable.

Our worst ever run in the Premier League era has seen us continuning to compete to sign the best players in the world (despite ultra-lazy predictions of what happens if you don't finish in the top 4) THREE major trophies.

Man Utd last three trophies:

2017, 2017, 2016

Spurs last three trophies:

2008, 1999, 1991

Liverpool:

2012, 2006, 2005

If in 20 years time we still haven't won the Prem again, then get back to me. Until then, zip it up, and take it from me - if these last 4 seasons have been "painful" (Europa League, FA Cup, League Cup, two Champs League qualifications, three Community Shields), you don't have a clue about what real 'pain' in football is.

1st/0th discussion was satisfactorily resolved in my favour and therefore will not be coming back

Ridiculous to bring relegation into it.

Arsenal had a more successful season than everyone apart from Chelsea and United.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they are set-up to have a more successful season the following year.

All Champions League qualification does is put the club on a stronger footing for the following season. It's far far lower than the FA Cup when judging 'success' of the current season.

So your answer to my hypothetical question is?

no.

but that is such an extreme example.

We were discussing ManU/ManCity where:

ManU won the mickey, the EL and qualified to the CL thanks to that while finishing 6th

ManCity finished 3rd

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so the answer to your hypothetical question is:

If we were to get relegated and won the Mickey in the process
and chelsea gets relegated the same year without winning a trophy but finishing 18th and us 20th

Arsenal had the better season. albeit both are terrible

I missed that discussion. TSO was celebrating pretty hard after the europa win, uncontrollable emotional responses to having satisfied the suits in requalifying for CL after yet another embarrassing league campaign up at old trafford. 7th, 4th, 5th, 6th.

So, what happens if Utd loses de EL final?

They still have more trophies than City, but they miss out on CL.
Is the Cup they won by literally being the only team to play their first XI still more valuable than Top4?
Did 1 single game against Ajax single handedly define a whole season of sucess?

My entire point is that it's more nuanced than: Which you seem to agree with in that case.

Top 4 is of "potential" value though. It isn't an actual result. For example, Spurs got zero value from top 4 last year. None. Nothing. It axtually put them at a disadvantage to Chelsea in terms of trying to win the league.

So, to answer your more reasonable hypothetical, United losing the Europa Final changes the ranking of success:

1) Chelsea - Prem, Champs League Qualification
2) Arsenal - FA Cup, Europa League Qualification
3) Man Utd - League Cup, Europa League Qualification
4) Spurs - Champions League Qualification
5) Liverpool - Champions League Qualification
6) LOLPEP

Well the EL is not a single game of football... neither is the FA cup

while the final is often the remembered game you are right. and yes both teams Arse/Utd. Turned their seasons around pretty much with the successful cup campaigns.

Aggrieved at seeing chelsea and united in the same sentence as successful.

Come on man.

yeah look joe if you want your hypothetical to have any value then you have got to make it more realistic. i suggest throwing in a manager with a track record of taking mega money teams into relegation scraps

shortlist of possible candidates:

Remember that Executives of Football Clubs have a different metric of success. They are looking at balance sheets and/or "prestige".

It's just sad that 'fans' accept an accountant's judgement of success rather than actually winning something.

It's impossible to needle me on Jose's legendary Chelsea relegation contendership season. It was hilarious, and one of the biggest reasons for it was that he wanted to be the manager of Manchester United not Chelsea.

1) Chelsea














2) United
3) Arsenal

Feel better? That's a good representation of difference in success. The Premier League is everything.

Not in United/City case. Which was what the original discussion was about.

yes there are nuances and trophy>no trophy stands for the original discussion.

not really trying to needle you jd, just think it generally ought to be emphasised more often that a supposed top 5 manager of the modern era/possibly all time recently had the most embarrassing season of any person involved in football since peter beardsley's small penis fell out of his shorts

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btw can of coke to whoever comes up with a good man utd equivalent for st totteringham's day. 4 years behind the neighbors and counting

United have clearly had a more successful season than City, only a fool would debate that. It's less clear, however, that Spurs haven't had a better season than United.

Not winning anything with the best team in the league for 2 seasons in a row is hardly an achievement

See that's where you're wrong Joe.

Yes, but in both seasons they drastically over-performed their pre-season expectations.