If only all of the $5/10+ online PLO8 guys were all in the same geographic location for a certain time of the year...Oh wait.


edit: Just re-read my post, and I kinda come across as a sarcastic ******* in making my point...sorry for that, no offense intended. Seriously though, this is the one time/place where we could get it started.

The reason that the big-o is going at the series is because the fish enjoy it. Over the last few years their has been less plo8 and more big-o most likely because the fish were getting torn up in a full ring plo8 game. You have 7 regs at a table with 1-2 fish over the duration of the day they are gonna get whacked by one of those regs every single time.

One of the things that I feel makes a player disadvantaged in this game is having too wide a hand selection. Well when you play plo8 these people aren't gonna have a prayer in just about any session they play because the more loose they are the more people are gonna nut peddle against them. Give them an extra card on the other hand they can be a bit more justified in seeing more flops and just playing overall. The thing that has to change in your potential playing style in this situation is when to push and when to pull players in. I assume since you have been playing for a living for 8 years that adjusting your playing style should not be difficult.

Overall I would also like consistent plo8 in vegas and i would definitely be interested in helping you get it going. I do feel as mentioned before we would have to start at low limits and work our way up. You start at a 1/2 then people can get comfortable with how the game plays without getting hurt too badly. You get a 5/10 going and it probably wouldn't take much more than a couple buyins for a fish to get sick of it.

As nice as the Wynn is to play at I just don't feel that the player traffic justifies starting a game there. I think if its possible doing this at venetian or aria would be best. I personally wouldn't want it to be a bunch of plo8 regs in the game because it ruins the point you originally made of having an edge in the game.

Foxwoods as well a few other places in the country do spread plo8 regularly so I do feel we could have a chance at having this game succeed in vegas. I feel the best best is to try and get it going at one of the casinos mentioned above while the series is here and try to get some consistent games going. I also have a few other players I can ask to get it going now if your interested.

Ship me a pm assani and lets get together and see what we can figure out. GL to everyone playing.

I spent 6 years in prison and lived very well from the commissary I won playing holdem and omaha hilo split. One day in my fourth year a guy walked up to the table and introduced a game he called Bamaha (your Big O). The game caught like wildfire. The fish, 90% of the players, loved the "extra luck" the fifth card gave them. I detested the insane variance and diminished skill this new game brought.
Did not matter because bamaha was here to stay and these guys were not going to listen to me whine about I might not win as many coca colas and tuna fish at the end of the week'. I'd get myself punched in the jaw if I cried about it,the game was so popular. So you adjust and try and figure your edges. Most have already been discussed, but hand reading is not as difficult as it may seem. Straights on flop w/o redraws are obvious garbage. It is definitely insane variance, but beatable as any other card game.

Point of this post is fish (and played with the fishiest) love 5 cards and are not likely to swim over to a plo8 game. Heck Big O just sounds friendly whereas PLO8 might as well be bridge or pinochle

Yikes! Anyhow, your debt to society paid, welcome to the forum.

That's more or less my experience in my friendly weekly home game. Now that they've played Omaha-8 with five cards none of them enjoy four card Omaha-8 anymore. Whenever someone deals four card Omaha-8 there's some whining about why a fifth card is not being dealt.

I applaud your efforts, Assani, and wish you luck, but I think it's like trying to hold back the tide. Five card Omaha-8 is here to stay.

Buzz

How many hands of big 0 have you played?

What part of the word "sustained" do you not understand?

I just got back from LV and I've had a chance to reassess.

After poo-pooing Wynn, I decided to go there to play Saturday afternoon. (Disclosure: I have a blood relative that is a high-level exec at Wynn. I don't use that for anything - in fact, I go out of my way not to use it - but I'm putting that out there just in case something happens later.)

Here are the things I like about Wynn:
1. $4 drop, not $5 like Rio. Rio is trying to make $$$ right now on their cash cow.
2. No JP drop in any game.
3. Comfy chairs, great lighting, ambiance.
4. Easy parking situation.
5. Decent treatment by floor, in spite of rumors in B&M that Wynn is run poorly.

Here's what I don't like:
1. PLO8 and mix players aren't going to the Wynn. When I was there Saturday from 1-4pm there are 12 tables running, all NL.

And that's all I don't like.

But here's the thing. They were great tables! Fishy tourists gave money away. I got to thinking that this NL thing isn't so bad. I'm not sharp at NL but I was able to run over a table and triple up. [/brag]

By contrast, at 11pm Friday night at Rio (I've been watching this to defend myself in this thread and also because I'm curious) there were 29 NL tables and 22 tables of some variant of Omaha. And separately, in the high limit section, there were 3 NL tables and 8 not-holdem tables. So, at Rio, during WSOP, HALF HALF HALF HALF HALF of the games being played were something besides NLHE, and a LOT of that, more than I've ever seen, was PLO8 or Big O. (And PLO and LO8 too.) My point is that the tide is turning and people are playing other games. Now we just need a critical mass of people to take these games back to wherever they came from and force their local cardrooms to play them.

My conclusions are:
1. Assani, if you want to try to start a game at Wynn, you should absolutely promote the heck out of it. I really love that cardroom and I was wrong to put it down. But you'll be at a disadvantage because the player pool is going to be at Rio, Nugget, Binions, and Caesars playing PLO8 tournaments. Players aren't going to hear about your game except from here. And I don't think you're going to get the players you want from here. I mean, I'm not going to play in your game. That isn't a personal attack ... I just know that there are better spots.
2. Let's embrace Big O. (Disclaimer: I've probably played 20k hands of Big O by now in home and public live cash games, and I might see edges that you don't.) Yes, there's more variance and the edges are smaller, but your ingrained knowledge of split pot play gives you an edge over most. Last night I played Razz/Dugi for the first time and I felt like I'd played it 100 times. We need to remember that split pot games all basically play the same.

Ill help start the games.....if i can sleep on your couch.

I dont have much to add not being in vegas, but having found a game where the most common game was PLO8 until 4 months ago when they introduced 5card im torn between both arguments.

I see the direct benefits from both games, the indirect isnt so clear, its a much higher variance game no matter how fast you can transition, its exhausting having to deal with the same 4 situations all the time (big O).

Why no love for the Venetian as the new WSOP PLO8 central outside the Rio. I've played PLO8 during the series at the V on a couple of occasions last year. I've seen a small list for PLO8 started a couple of times in the last week and I believe there were 5 PLO games going last night (Sunday night). In my experience some of the PLO players will shift to PLO8 if a game is started. Also there are maybe 4 or 5 limit O8 games plus HORSE to draw from and I know there are many PLO8 players there.

The Wynn has nothing outside of holdem and way, way less traffic than the V (I was there Saturday night). I was also at Aria Saturday mid afternoon and there was nothing but holdem. Not even PLO, just a short list. I'm not sure what is going on with Jeff Hwang, TT, Assani etc. all pushing games at rooms like Aria and the Wynn but the V has always had the best selection of games outside the Rio and as far as I know a staff that has been helpful in getting things going. I've stayed and played at all these rooms and I don't work for anyone. I'm just staying at the V this series specifically for the variety games and it seems like the overwhelmingly most logical place to successfully get PLO8 off the ground outside the Rio.

Cliff Notes:
It would seem if you want PLO8 to go outside of the Rio your best shot would be at the V. However, if you want to promote a specific poker room, well, that is a different thing.

On the Big O Issue:
Played 1/2 Big O yesterday at the Rio. 2 games where going with a list. $6 per half hour time charge. Biggest thing I noticed is that it is a very, very slow game. PLO8 is slow but Big O is quite a bit slower. Add in running it twice and I believe the boredom of the slowness trumps the added excitement of being dealt 5 cards. Also 5 cards of trash is somehow more dissappointing than 4, :-).

Which arguments exactly? The theoretical debate as to which game is better? I think that debate, in itself, would likely be more worthy that what was presented here as an appeal, but the debate at this point is irrelevant.

This isnt happening, FWIW. Its clear that theres less skill in BIG O than in PLO/8, and its clear that this should be happening, but its not.

I played a heads up match there about a year ago or so cause the guy i was playing liked to play there. I wore a sweatshirt that day that i literally had to throw out.

The main post and the opinions of truthiness. I think the biggest difference is that Big O pulls in everyone you want at a PLO8 or NLO8 game, you just have to handle the natural swings. Everyone has to make sacrifices, I hate playing NLHE and yet I do it live 4 times a week because its the game and when the O8 cash game rolls around once a week im dissapointed to play Big O, until I win a 600BB pot.

Neither game is "better."

big O sucks because of all the cash-strapped nitty lifedonks running the turn and river multiple times

"ok seat one gets a quarter of the SIDE POT and you two went all in after the FIRST turn card so theres another side pot that uhhmm the yokel in seat two gets half of, is that right??? seat one also gets a sixth of the MAIN POT which i neglected to seperate from all the other pots so im just gonna make few nice even little stacks of chips and pass them around, im sure no one is keeping track anyway. OOPS thats my half hour, i need 72 bucks now" - verbatim from every rio dealer at a big O table

and 9 handed live poker games of any variety are an excruciating exercise in patience for the online pros, i think if PLO8 was spread as widely as big O is in vegas, the plo8 experts on this forum would be making the similar complaints about the game quality.

we should push for a Big O/PLO mix game. that would lead to widespread stack punting in both games, imo.

That's why I'm not in Vegas (and the money thing). The speed, rake, dealer knowledge seems to kill the game. At least the last couple years when I've been there. It's not something I like to do sober.

I agree with this.


I do not agree with this. Many of the big O fish I've talked to in the past few days have never even tried PLO8, and I've talked to a lot of them as I've put in over 35 hours the past 3 days at $5/10(w/button straddle) Big O.



I feel as if we are just repeating ourselves in this thread now:

Assani: We should try to promote PLO8 instead of Big O because its a better game.

Other people: But the fish like Big O more

Assani: I understand that. But a big reason why all of the fish like Big O is because the Big O regs have done such a great job promoting the game. If we tried this with PLO8 then maybe we could get the fish.

Other people: But the fish like Big O more!!

Assani: Most of them haven't even played both games to compare! Lets at least try to get PLO8 running and give it a chance to see if the fish really do dislike it in favor of Big O.

Other people: But the fish like Big O more!!!!!!




I've only become more convinced of this from playing the past few days. Theres a number of really great Big O promoters in the game. Brian(white guy, glasses, black hat) is amazing at running the game. He quite literally does more work than the floor/dealers when it comes to announcing open seats, collecting time, and keeping the game moving. Nathan(CincysFinest) goes way out of his way to be nice and friendly to all of the newcomers. Jack and all of the Texas guys are overly nice and even go out of their way to invite people to some Big O games in Texas. Then I look around at the online PLO8 players who claim that "fish simply don't like PLO8 so we must play Big O instead" and all of them have headphones in, don't say a word, and quietly win their money and go home. My main point in all of this has not been to argue that the fish will prefer PLO8. My point has been that we need to take a lesson from the Big O regs on how to promote our game, and we need to at least give high stakes live PLO8 a chance to succeed.









Anyway, its painfully obvious to me that I'm not going to get enough support here, so I'm just going to drop it. For the 3 people who did contact me and wanted to play PLO8, sorry but I guess I'm just gonna stick to Big O this year.

I definitely do want to keep either Big O or PLO8 going after the series is over. I definitely prefer the Wynn, but I'm ok with Venetian or Aria. Every Vegas local who plays in any O8 variants at the WSOP, please try to talk about this to other players at the table and lets try to keep the game going all year long.

For me theres really only 2 reasons I prefer the Wynn:

1. Parking is way better, and for someone like me who goes to the car for 420 breaks every so often this is a big deal. It takes less than a minute to walk from Wynn poker room to parking garage, whereas it'll take 5+ at Venetian.

2. Wynn really takes care of me with food comps(two $20 comps every time I play), and I eat a ton. Maybe Venetian does this for their regulars though, I dunno- can anyone confirm?

I don't think venetian does anything even close to what the wynn does comp wise. As I mentioned previously I am more than willing to try and help ya get some plo8 going on a regular basis during and after the series is done. I will be working today and tomorrow afternoon as board operator for the mid limit section at the series. Come chat me up maybe I can try and promote some plo8 for the duration of the series

"But the fish like Big O more." You seem to think that statement is because PLO8's advertising plan stinks. Perhaps instead it is because Big O is more fun for less-skilled players. In other words, whether true or not, the existence of the 5th card and wild action makes the fish feel like it's more of a gamble and less of a grind-fest.

The success of any game, let alone Big O, isn't about getting the players to sit down. It's about how the players feel once they sit down. Sounds like the fish that do sit at Big O have a great time. Voila...repeat business.

Obviously, that's an oversimplification of all the reasons a game is successful, but it is possibly the most important factor.

QFT

gotta lol just a bit, assani was playing big O last night

No, in fact I am the one being open minded as to the cause. I've simply pointed out that it may be a factor.

perhaps that is true. What do you think the best way to find out would be? Do you think that if we made PLO8's "advertising plan" similar to what they've done with Big O then we would eliminate one variable and better be able to decide? That is what I'm suggesting. Are you suggesting that the "advertising plan" plays no part at all and that we should be content with a subpar one for PLO8?

Whats your name? I'd love to meet anyone from the O8 community, but I'm meeting so many people from online at the tables that its difficult for me to remember everyone(the weed doesn't help this ldo). But yeah, I'll definitely try sometime. Mid limit section = the $1/2, $2/5, $5/10 NLHE games? Or the booth to the left of that with all of the O8 games?