(Sorry for several hands in one post, but not really looking for comments on what I think are obvious hands, but using them to ask about a general principle.)

I read in Ray Zee's book and Super System 2 that slowplaying is rarely correct in limit O/8. So I don't slow play. I'm pretty sure the 2 chances I had a slow play over the weekend, I was correct to play them fast.

I limp in with several others holding AKKQ and the flop was K33. I bet, got one caller (I was HOPING he had a 3), turn was 7 (oh no, I have no chance at a low), and villain folded to my turn bet.

6 months ago, twice in a day, I had AA** and flopped quads. The first time I did not play them slow, and it went runner-runner for a low so I got half the pot, and after being criticized for not slowplaying, later I did stupidly play quad A's slow and the flop checked through, which allowed runner-runner low to get there again. The first one was not my fault - someone made a bad play and got rewarded. The second time was totally my fault for letting someone stay around - and I learned my lesson to not slow play if there is any chance a low can get there. Maybe a slowplay would be OK with quads on a flop of KKQ or KQQ?

Saturday I get A223 and raise preflop. 4 players see the beautiful flop of 456. Check, check, I bet, and LP raises. Hahahaha. 2 callers. Hahahaha. With 3 other people still in, this does not seem like a time to slowplay, and I start shovelling in chips in as fast as they will let me. I cap flop and 3 bet turn, and get called on the river to collect my 3/4 against the 1/4 for the A2** of LP. (/brag)

So my question is: when, if ever, would you slow play in limit O/8? Please give an example. The general principles I've stumbled on is 1) don't slow play with several people in the pot, and 2) don't slow play if a low can get there. Agree?

Another example. Someone told me that players often slow play a flopped wheel. That also seems bad. If you have 25 and flop A34, you may very well chop the low if a 2 or 5 show up on the board.

good thread, dave.

1) the hands you posted - I fastplay all of them.

2) things to consider:

a- what's the action to me? was there a bet or everyone checked?
if it's checked to me, i'll almost always bet, rather than check.
if it's a bet to me, there's some chance i'll just call, rather than raise.
if the player to my immediate right bets and there are potential customers behind me, calling might have a better expected value than raising.

b- will I get action (value) if I fastplay?
if I expect action i'll almost always fastplay.
a good example is the hand you played with the monotone 456 board.
another good example is KK** on a KQQ flop. any Q will give me action.

c- will fastplaying allow me to promote a non nut hand in the other direction?
If I can promote, I'll almost always fastplay.
A5KK on a KK4 is an example.

d- is there a decent chance i'll get outdrawn?
If there's even a small chance i'll get outdrawn, i'll almost always fastplay.
backdoor low draws that may cost me half the pot included.

e- is there a great chance players make payoff 2nd best hands?
Unlike in holdem, with 4 cards it's likely players will make something.
So I want reason believe they make a real something and pay me off really often.

An example is having AKxKy2z on a KTKz board. If i'm against tight players, I have reason to believe they won't call me on this flop.

they aren't likely to draw to anything less than the nut flush and I have the A, so i'd consider checking. if they catch a flush or a straight they might pay me off.

As you can see, conditions must be near perfect for me to slowplay...

I think you played fine. If you don't play it fast, he might end up splitting the pot with you by winning low. Moreover, I think he would have called with a three.

I'd be inclined to slow play flopped quad aces. However, sometimes, if you have a paranoid opponent who thinks you're trying to pull a fast one and who might call to play "table sheriff," fast playing would be right. You never know for sure. But I'd generally slow play quad aces, and I think Ray Zee would too.

Yes. I think so.

When your hand is strong enough to slow play and your opponents don't expect it. Often your hand isn't strong enough to slow play and needs all the "protection" you can give it.

You have a hand held pair and flop trips. In general, you're not strong enough to slow play and don't want people to draw out against you.
eg. you hold KK32
and the flop is K92. Bet. Don't slow play the flopped set of kings. (However, you never know for sure... You'll surely make your hand more difficult to read if you do slow play the set of kings).

Sort of.

As usual, I haven't read the other replies yet.

Buzz

Logical, organized and systematic thinking.

Thanks.

Buzz

Buzz - OK - so you are saying there are times to slowplay. Can you please give a few reasons why you would slowplay quad A's, or may be an example of when you would? Would you ever do it on a flop of AAx where x <= 8? Or only on a flop of AAx where x >= 9?

Or maybe you are thinking of a time when you have a very good chance to make a low also ... it is tough to just make up hands, but let's say you have AA23 and the flop is AA4. Depending on lots of details I've left out (mostly your position and what the other players are like), is that at least a candidate for a hand you might slow play?

Another reason I don't like slowplaying is that I am giving away bets now in hopes of making them up in the future, and that may not happen, or can be very difficult. For instance, if 3 people would call your flop bet, that's 3 small bets you are giving away by slow playing (e.g. letting the flop check around). To make up for that, you have to pull in 2 additional big bets that you would not have made otherwise. But maybe this is not the best example since getting 3 people to call small bets is not common on a paired flop when none of them have one of the paired cards since you have quads. Basically, what I'm trying to ask is: what is your plan to get back the bets you have given away by slow playing? Or are you only slowplaying on hands you don't expect to get more than 1 small bet if you bet the flop?

Str8 - thanks for the very clear list of factors to consider!

Everyone else - feel free to use this thread to post your brag hands of when not to slow play!

A couple months back I flopped a heart royal in the big blind in an unraised, multiway (four or five-handed) pot. KJ was in my hand, AQT on the board.

I was first to act and decided to bet. With the pot being multiway, I didn't want to give people a free chance to back into a low. Because the pot was unraised, I couldn't count on anyone betting this flop. (If it had been raised, and the villain was likely to c-bet, I would have considered a check/call or check/raise.)

I also couldn't count on anyone betting this flop because there was no low draw (backdoor only), and the best possible high anyone could have had was a flush with the 9. But I would likely get a call or two from small flushes and sets.

Change it so that the A is in my hand, and thus a backdoor low is not possible, and I'm more inclined to check (though I'm not necessarily checking).

Yes, but not much. It will only be rarely that you'll have cards where you'll want to afford your opponent(s) the opportunity to draw out on you.

You slow-play a hand to allow an opponent an opportunity to make an inferior hand with which he'll pay off on the river. For example if the board on the turn were
A,A,9,9, and if you hold
A,A,8,7, then no river card can hurt you. If you think your opponent will fold to a bet, but might call on the river if he catches something, then go ahead and slow play.

I might, depending on how many opponents I thought might get hooked by a slow play, and maybe upon my own chances of making a winning low.

I'd probably slow play that one for one round, especially with multiple opponents... Depends.

It's a candidate. But you'd obviously generally hate to see a deuce or trey on the turn or river, and about one time in four you will (see a deuce or trey on the turn or river).

I wouldn't have any plan. I wouldn't be thinking that way. I'd be thinking I might get no bets at all by fast-playing, or (more rarely) I'd be thinking I might get more bets by slowplaying than fast playing.

Mostly, for me, slow-playing turns nothing into something. At least that's the idea.

How I might "get bets back" that I might have lost or not gotten because of how I played something that's over and done with never has crossed my mind. When an action is done, it's finished. There's no way to "get that back."

That's true in poker and it's true in life. You do what you do... and then, good or bad, that's done. That's whatever it was and you're whoever you are partly on the basis of that experience.

It's rare for me to slow-play, but when I do, it's in the hope of getting something I wouldn't get otherwise or even more rarely, it's in the hope of getting more than I would have gotten otherwise.

Buzz

Fastplaying vs slowplaying monsters is situational and st8's advice above is great. Against calling stations always fastplay, especially if you have an "aggressive" image or they're on tilt as you'd be surprised how light you get called down.

A few days ago I was in a 7 handed game and raised a UTG calling station limp with AQ4xss from CO and get called by BB and UTG.

Flop is AAKr, gets checked to me and I bet, UTG calls.
Turn is the case A. UTG checks. I bet. UTG calls.
River [irrelevant]. Same as turn. I show my quads and UTG shows me 2466.

I had a hand a couple years ago I slow played, and do not think I could have increased win by being fast.

It was a Kill pot that I won previous hand and was now on button.

I had KK46 rainbow. There were 4 limpers to me I checked, small blind called and big blind raised. The 4 limpers called, I decided it was worth pot odds to see the flop and small blind called.

The flop was KKJ rainbow. The big blind continuation bet, 3 callers to me - I tried to think of hands that could beat me - just came up with runner, runner quad aces, or runner, runner str flush / royal flush - low was no longer possible - so I called and small blind folded

A 10 came on the turn - straight got there - Big blind led out again, 2 callers to me I called - river was a flush completer.

Big blind bet - 2 callers, I raise - big blind and other 2 called.

I flipped up my quads and scooped a big pot - not sure what others had, and didn't feel like pushing the issue, as I was very happy.

More likely to slowplay from EP
More likely to slowplay with one-way flop
More likely to slowplay with multiple opponents
More likely to slowplay with tight or passive image
More likely to slowplay with aggressive opponents

Not sorted by order of likeliness.

Regards

Gar

Here's a sick slowplay hand for you...

UTG raises to $10, 4 callers...
FLOP: T J 5
UTG bets $5 and is called in two spots.
TURN: J
UTG checks, MP checks, LP checks.
RIVER: 9
UTG bets $10, MP raises to $20, LP folds, UTG re-raises to $30, MP 4-bets to $40...
UTG suddenly leans forward and announces,
UTG calls and shows A J J 7
MP shows A 4 8 Q

Bad beat jackpots kinda of mess with this thread

But, IMO, turned quads was correct to check the turn and hope a flush or str8 was made, right? I don't think UTG was figuring on the BBJ as his insurance policy when he did it. And MP admitted he would've folded to any bet on that turn card.

in order for utg's 3-bet to make sense he needs to think villian raise/calls underfulls with a player behind a good amount... i wouldn't 3-bet, personally...

Yeah, UTG explained he thought MP was raising with an ace-high flush or FH, but when he made it 4, the alarm bells went off and he realized the only thing he could possibly 4-bet on that board was the str8 flush, thus his speech about calling.

here is my thinking, here is a simple time to slowplay. you flop quads and there is no low cards on the flop. you can let someone catch up and not too likely you will get calls.

if there is a low card with it then someone will peel one off trying for a low. so might as well push it. or if you dont you let them get maybe half for free or cheap.

if the field is large and no low cards but other draws, you can pick up a call and build the pot and they may stick around. if you let them get a free one and they miss the pot is too small to pay now.

heads up i would slowplay more hands. most times where the player was aggressive and might bet for me.