Removing NLO8 would kill a lot of hi lo action. Fish prefer it, and it is by far the most popular cash variant of the game.

Thanks for sharing your point of view.

Start tables.

That's how I get NLO8 tables going.

Essentially, make a ****ing effort.

Cheers, mate.

Valid point, and you are correct, there are lots of fish at the NL tables, but whether or not that would be the case if they only had PLO8 is just speculation. Back in the Full Tilt days, PLO8 was a thriving game, with tons of tables going and never an option for NL.

Stars will not get rid of them, because the rake is good. What I really wouldn't mind seeing is some HU PL08 tables at reasonable stakes. Ipoker offers them down to 10 euro. Can almost always get some action on their HU tables.

I don't play cash. It's a pretty easy observation to make whenever I browse the cash lobby.

NLHE player here. Been interested in learning O8 and other omaha games for awhile, but learning about the rake situation on PS in low stakes cash has kept me out of the games.

Have you ever tried the desert humble pie? You should give it a go before engaging hands to key board next time.

The two worst forms of poker I have ever played were NL Omaha Hi and limit Omaha Hi. Certain forms of poker were are better suited to NL and others PL or limit. It is just my opinion that 08 is at it's best when it is PLO8- and this comes from someone who just plays NL08 hypers presently.

Either way that doesn't mean you should insult, shout down and disrespect anyone who prefers a different form of 08. I don't think either myself or Egg did anything other than suggest we would prefer to be able to play more PLO8. Where I come from, having a different opinion is perfectly acceptable. I was pretty sure Norway was a highly advanced and intellectual country with a superb education system. But every society has it's numpties and you should never generalise.

I, like everyone else, have had to adapt to playing NL08. Just because NL08 is now the most popular doesn't mean it always will be. Poker evolves. Good luck playing NL08 in 5-10 years time.

We all perceive things differently.

I was probably out of line though.

I think there are greater forces at play than if a single player starts up new tables or not. You can't simply fight windmills. The appeal of no limit may partly be just what it says: no limit. You have the total freedom to do what you want, not any boundaries you are bouncing your head against constantly.

We were probably all a bit out of line. No reason to start battles over something we basically all agree on, it would be nice to see more traffic at HL.

I left PS last month and really only play HL via zoom, with a few bucks I left on. I actually don't mind the NL aspect in the faster zoom world. I just feel it ruins the ring version, which I use to really enjoy on Stars.

I'll just stick have to HU on ipoker and whatever ring games they have.

Some exciting news! SteveD of PokerStars mentioned on this week's 2+2 Pokercast that one of the results of the player meetings is changing the ratio of PLO8:NLO8 MTTs in the current schedule. He says that there has not been any immediate action, but they are looking to covert some PLO8 MTTs to NLO8 to better align their MTT offerings to the actual demand of each game.

I know some of you have expressed your preference for PLO8, but the ultimate goal should be to let the demand dictate what games are offered. You shouldn't hate a game because you have a bigger overall edge in the one you prefer. You should choose the one that is the recreational players play the most. Presently, in the case of NLO8 vs PLO8, NLO8 is the game of choice.

The current NLO8:PLO8 ratio for MTTs is around 30:70 and will most likely be changed to 50:50 or even 60:40. Expect one of the morning $33 PLO8s to be changed to NLO8 and some of the $22s that run later in the day. Maybe even the $109 will be NLO8?!

Anyone that wish to listen to the podcast can go here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/97...ckoff-1447482/

Steve's segment starts at the 2hr25min mark. He talks about the O8 changes at the 2hr28min mark.

It is you who hates the games. You always speak about your little low/mid stakes NLO8 world. For you other games don't exist. You even ignore FLO8 completely.

Don't try to speak for everybody when it's just your little opinion.

And some less exciting news: Full Tilt has removed the O8 Weeklies.
Whose idea was it to make them $109 only because that would attract sooo many players?

100% agree.


He creates a 'how to improve O8 MTT' thread (before), and he pretty much ignores any suggestion that doesn't align with his vision.

I never said I hated PLO8 at any point. As a matter of fact, I had absolutely [b]zero[/b influence on the decisions that came from these meetings. I did not make any suggestions during this round of player meetings (other than decreased rake for split pot cash games) because I didn't think the meetings would accomplish anything for the O8 schedule. There are usually big picture topics discussed and in the grand scheme of things, O8 does not represent a huge part of the poker economy (maybe 5%?).

The purpose of my previous post was to inform the O8 community that there are changes coming as a result of the meeting. The part where I specifically mention NLO8 being more popular than PLO8 is a fact - whether you like it or not. It wasn't directed at you or SteveMcQueen, it was specifically in reference to the posts above between DingusEgg and WINNINGSTEK with DingusEgg showing distaste for NLO8 because "he doesn't find it fun" and wants to see flops with A2xx hands.

I'm trying to make others aware that when Pokerstars makes a change, they do not simply look at whether regs are happy. Their priority right now is to be able to maintain the success of online poker long-term, and the biggest component of that is by ensuring recreational players are happy. Based on the numbers from SNGs (hypers and 18 man), it's pretty clear that NLO8 is extremely popular in a tournament format. I can confidently say that my opinion is pretty representative of the common opinion.

Stars' decision to offer more NLO8 MTTs is a direct result of this fact, not because a few SuperNovas that play NLO8 SNGs went directly to Stars and told them that they prefer NLO8 > PLO8. You can chose the ignore the facts all you want, but it's a fact how little NLO8 MTTs there are just a handful NLO8 MTTs that are not turbo or hyper.

I'll emphasis this again: I do not hate PLO8; nor do I have anything against you (or anyone on the forum). Nothing is intended to be personal (if it comes across that way at all, that is not the intend). I think that we do share common views in terms of growing the game of O8 in the long-run. Just because I don't post about FLO8 doesn't mean you can't chime in and share your perspective (as you probably play the game more). Same with PLO8. I'm pretty sure that when Pokerstars makes changes to the schedule, they're not going to look exclusively at a post by one person and have it as the be one and end all.

I prefer PLO8 these days but I can understand why more folks like NLO8 (if that is true) because NLO8 definitely favours the fish out of the 2 formats.

Í guess from a cross-over POV, maybe newbies prefer NL because that's what they're used to with holdem but from a players' player POV, there's most def more skill in PLO8, therefore most better regs probably prefer the format with slightly less variance.

You guys are no Froch vs Groves though - hope you're all watching

The decision was FTP's actually. When they changed up the schedule initially, they decided to cut the buyins because the traffic was low. They initially had a $109 PLO8 with a $3k gtd and a $109 NLO8 2-3 hours later. I suggested moving the $109 NLO8 to Sunday to spread out the two games so that there would traffic on both days rather than one. This change resulted in larger combined prize pools rather than one that would be cancelled frequently due to the unpopular time slot and not capitalizing on the Sunday traffic.

I plan on making a post in the FTP thread to get both $109s back up and running, I welcome you to join me to support the cause.

I think there's a pretty big difference between ignoring a suggestion and being a realist. I feel that over the past few years, I've gained a fairly good understanding of the poker economy and how decisions are made by the poker site. My posts are reflective of how feasible a change would be and a lot of the ones you've referenced are simply unsustainable.

For instance, the constant debate of how to improve the $109 PLO8 on Stars. Simply changing the guarantee to 5k isn't going to have a positive long-term benefit. Adding satellites, making it a red tournament (like what Demonic and GTXR1 suggested earlier) gives Stars a more compelling argument.

Yes, pointing out how the FLO8 $22's barely ever get going, and switching them to PLO8 or NLO8 instead, was too much for a 'realist' to acknowledge. I wonder why anyone would get the impression that you 'had' a problem with PLO8, since you focused on changing the $16.50 PLO8 and $215 PLO8 (I agreed that the structures SHOULD be changed), the $109 PLO8 (no problem with me switching it to NLO8 if it gets more runners), and the time of the $5r PLO8.


I do read your posts, and over the past year, your interest/mandate seems to flip-flop between what the regulars want, and what would attract more runners in the long run. Moving the $5r to another time, when it's one of the more popular O8 MTTs, never made much sense to me. Especially if your primary motive was to be doing what you could to attract more runners. I don't think it's the cat's meow BTW, and for the record, I don't mind the changes they're going to make, or all of your suggestions/recommendations.


If you're going to name drop, add my name to the list of those that 'suggested' that they add more satellites into the $109. I did that more than once BTW. I also mentioned how it's kind of ridiculous having a relatively high HT satellite (x2), which doesn't make much sense - especially since the tournament itself is only $109 to buy into.

Yes boy. The Cobra bossed it. Doing it for the Midlands. Andre Ward round 2 please.

Pokerstars.tv did not broadcast any of the 08 events. Not even 1!

Ah I don't wanna see Froch (I'm a Froch fan) get back in the ring with Ward. Ward is a cross between Mayweather and Ali - he has Ali's skills with the jab and the counter-punch nous of that boring chicken-**** ****er Mayweather. Froch only has one gear - knock this mother****er OUT! - and Ward is too sly to be properly nailed like Groves was tonight, Froch is too macho and too long in the tooth to learn the box and move counter-punch Ward/Mayweather style.

Still I would love to be proved wrong and I guess it's always possible Froch will land a bomb and upset Ward but I find that highly unlikely. I thoroughly enjoyed tonight though

That's really awful news

I am both nervous and at the same time cautiously optimistic about these changes.

I really hope these changes do bring more players to the game but I am pretty unhappy about the fact they will lessen my edge in these games while being fully aware this is a very selfish position.


The one thing I am puzzled about is how it is being suggested that these changes originate from the players meeting. As I do not believe this was a mandate a majority of O8 players suggested.

Time will tell whether these changes will be successful I hope they are.

I don't disagree. Ward is class but he's been injured and hasn't fought recently.

The reason I want to see it is I can't stand the ego of some of these American boxers like Mayweather and Ward (S.O.G- Son of God- gimme a break mate).

Khan (another Mr ego) has a far better chance against Mayweather than Froch against Ward. Mayweather has definitely had some generous decisions and would get a home decision if it went 12 rounds in Vegas. I want to see that fight though. I really think Khan would test his defences to the limits and Mayweather doesn't hit hard enough to really punish Khan's weak chin.

Haha yea. Ward claims to be a Christian then declares himself the "Son Of God". Blasphemous much? I guess we skipped the anti-christ, armageddon and the war of wars, skipped straight to some dude with a few boxing skills.

Can't stand Mayweather. Watched this pre-fight thing on HBO once, his kids were flying about his house on one of those vertical scooter things with multi-million dollar rapper necklaces. Sick and twisted. Agree I wanna see Kahn vs Mayweather - the reason Mayweather picked Maidana was of course because he knew Kahn would out-box him and he was unlikely to stop him. Same reason he kept offering excuse after excuse not to face the Pacman.