hi everyone,

this is my first post on 2+2, so if i´m asking questions already discussed elsewhere don´t get too upset please.
i was playing in an absolute crazy PLO8 25 full ring cash game on pokerstars. villian bet the pot almost every hand on every street. he for example got into a raising war with another player preflop until the second guy had his 18$ or smthng in with Tc 2s 8h 4s.
hero is always the same in all hands.

hand 1:
i thought my pocket aces gave me an edge for high and against villains completely random hands A6 might give me low if it occurs.


PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($8.85)
BB ($22.55)
UTG ($45.90)
UTG+1 ($48.30)
MP1 =#A500AF(villain)/ ($59.40)
Hero ($25)
CO ($16.25)
Button ($19.45)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with , , , .
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 =#A500AF(villain)/ raises to $1.1, Hero raises to $3.9, 4 folds, UTG folds, MP1 =#A500AF(villain)/ raises to $12.3, Hero raises to $25, MP1 =#A500AF(villain)/ calls $12.70.

Flop: ($50.60) , , (2 players)

Turn: ($50.60) (2 players)

River: ($50.60) (2 players)

Final Pot: $50.60

Results in white below:
villain has 2h Td Kc Ah (Low: 7, 6, 4, 2, A | High: one pair, sevens).
Hero has 6h Ad 8c As (Low: 8, 7, 6, 4, A | High: two pair, aces and sevens).
Outcome: villain wins $25.30. Hero wins $25.30.

so my main question is if you think it´s the right move to isolate villains random hand with AA6x or if it´s too much of a gamble for a whole buy in.



hand2:
in hand two i thought it was a good idea to isolate villain on the flop with to nuts low and one pair since the hands he showed down where really completely random. i know my low has no backup and one pair, if in front, is vulnerable as well.


PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 ($10.30)
MP2 ($42.40)
MP3 ($44.70)
CO ($45)
Button =#A500AF(villain)/ ($43.95)
Hero ($24.75)
BB ($15.90)
UTG ($13.30)
UTG+1 ($31.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , , , .
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Button =#A500AF(villain)/ raises to $1.1, Hero calls $1, BB calls $0.85, MP2 calls $0.85.

Flop: ($4.40) , , (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, villain bets $4.2, Hero raises to $16.8, BB folds, MP2 folds, villain raises to $29.4, Hero calls $6.85 (All-In).

Turn: ($51.70) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($51.70) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $51.70

Results in white below:
villain has 9s 6s 5h Ac (Low: 7, 6, 5, 3, A | High: straight, nine high).
Hero has 7s 6d 2d As (Low: 7, 5, 3, 2, A | High: one pair, sevens).
Outcome: villain wins $31.60. Hero wins $25.85.


again i´d like to know what you think of the risk vs. reward ratio.


hand 3:
on the flop i gambled a bit and tried to push MP2 out because i thought my oesd + second nuts low draw would be enough against villain. i figuered even a pair of aces might be enough...


PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 ($26.50)
MP2 ($38.75)
MP3 ($43.25)
CO ($44.65)
Button =#A500AF(villain)/ ($18.30)
Hero ($23.15)
BB ($15.50)
UTG ($25.80)
UTG+1 ($27.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , , , .
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Button =#A500AF(villain)/ raises to $1.1, Hero calls $1, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.85.

Flop: ($3.55) , , (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, villain bets $3.4, Hero raises to $13.6, MP2 calls $13.60, villain raises to $17.2, Hero calls $3.60, MP2 calls $3.60.

Turn: ($55.15) (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

River: ($55.15) (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: $55.15

Results in white below:
MP2 has As 4d 4c 2d (High: two pair, eights and fours).
villain has Qd 3h Jc Qh (High: full house, queens full of eights).
Hero has Jh 3c Ad Tc (High: straight, queen high).
Outcome: villain wins $55.15.



but my most important question is what you think is the right range of hands to take a gamble for 25 bucks against random hands like 49T9rainbow.

any help is highly appreciated!

I think you were fine as played on all 3 hands. I believe you were slightly ahead in equity each time the money went in. Worth noting that villain was behind, but never ridiculously far behind in equity.

I don't feel like doing your homework for you, but you can look up the percentages on twodimes.net and let us know what the respective equities were on each hand when the money went in.

In two of the hands, villain held A2xx, and in the third a high pair. Are there a bunch of other hands where villain plays significantly worse starting hands? If not, I wouldn't loosen up too much against this villain yet.

@ franknagaijr: ty for the link.

1st hand:
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 6h ad 8c as - 2h td kc ah
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 8c Ad 6h 199913 330736 169264 0 96768 133979 15967 0.573
Kc Td Ah 2h 130563 169264 330736 0 150147 16852 15967 0.427

not much equity there but thats not quite the point. i saw him doing this with hands like 9925 where i would have been about a 65 to 35 favourite.


2nd hand: i calculated it postflop, because thats where the money went in.

pokenum -o8 7s 6d 2d as - 9s 6s 5h ac -- 7h 3d 5d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 5d 3d 7h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 7s 6d 2d 463 550 183 87 703 0 117 0.826
9s 6s Ac 5h 0 183 550 87 0 703 117 0.174

i´ll need no further explanation on that one i guess.


3rd hand: also calculated postflop

pokenum -o8 as 4d 4c 2d - qd 3h jc qh - jh 3c ad tc -- 8d 9d 6c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing 6c 9d 8d
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 4c 4d 2d 249 281 385 0 377 99 0 0.544
Jc Qd Qh 3h 109 228 433 5 0 0 0 0.256
Tc 3c Ad Jh 31 152 509 5 99 291 0 0.200

in this one i didn´t have the best of it because i couldn´t push MP2 out. but if i succeeded and MP2 would have folded i would only have been a 0.552 to 0.448 favourite. so i guess i simply overvalued that one

Hi hendrik - Welcome to the forum. Although I don't like your short stack strategy, I can't find fault in it other than it trusts more to luck than another strategy might. And you just didn't get the luck this time.

If it isn't the right move, I can't see why not.

Hand two is a much nicer starting hand than hand one, at least for more than heads-up play. It's a pulling hand before the flop, and then it's still a pulling hand after the flop. you played correctly before the flop but then you made too big of a raise after the flop and you ended up more or less breaking even with a fine hand where you might have collected more.

I think the risk to reward ratio is fine. However, I don't see the issue here as a risk vs. reward ratio issue.

Instead, I don't think you optimized the earning potential of your hand.
Pre-flop is fine, but what the heck is the big raise on the flop with a drawing hand???

It's really a very simple concept. (I'm not being sarcastic). Ideally you'd like to always bet a sure thing. But you can't exactly pull that off against thinking opponents because if they see what you're doing, then you won't be able to collect from them when you bet a sure thing.

But when you're drawing, you're usually drawing for a sure thing. Ideally you want as little money going into the pot before you make your sure thing as possible. And then you want to get your money in when you make your sure thing and you want to get out of the pot as cheaply as possible when you miss.

Can you really pull that off? Well... Yes. It turns out you actually can. But this time you bet too early, before you had the sure thing, and then you never got the sure thing after all - but you had already stuck your money in the pot - and thus you lost the money you stuck in the pot too early. You gambled you'd make the sure thing, but you had unfavorable odds to make the gamble.

That's all right to do occasionally, because it keeps your opponents calling when you hit the flop and bet - so your bet was not entirely wasted if you set your opponents up for future calls when you flop top set or some other good thing. But it's probably a loser for any particular time you try it. So you probably don't want to try it very much.

The thing about poker is you can get in situations where you have favorable odds. And then you want to gamble.

You may have to do a bit of betting when you don't have a sure thing or favorable odds, just to keep your opponents coming back for more. But doing so is essentially a waste of your money and you (obviously) don't want to do that more than necessary.
I don't know. If you're going to use a short-stack strategy, I advise you to read a book about it or post specific questions about specific hands.

We don't know that Villain, if playing random hands, has 49T9rainbow.

Buzz

@ buzz. tyvm for your responses. i guess there´s no doubt about it that i played hands 2 & 3 too fast. i´m not a complete novice of O8 and normally act according to pulling vs. pushing hands. but in this special case villain got me complete off my game because i had seen him moving in with underpairs to the board (in retrospect: no chance he had an underpair to a seven-high board... clear mistake).

i read an article of lee watkinson if i remember right, in which he said buyin in short would be a proper strategy for PLO, because you could often see the river for free or take a free showdown. so i thougt buying in for 15$ instead of 25$ might give me somewhat of an edge because in PLO8 25 there´s so many possibilities to get your money in good. i´d very much like to share ideas on that or if already discussed someone might give me a hint where i can find it.
hendrik

I really don ' t understand why you are doing that.

Now I get it. I just was´t thinking it through. Very interesting.

There was a similar thread yesterday so I am repeating myself, but imo you were sitting in the worst seat. Since villain always bets, it's as though you are always playing under the gun. As happened in hand #3, you don't know if someone will call or raise behind you when you shove. It's the guys to the immediate right of the villain that make the most in this situation, since it's as though they are always on the button.