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self confidence hit self confidence hit

03-07-2010 , 02:43 PM
Here's the deal.

I was playing very well. In fact, a month ago, I was crushing my limit. I moved up a bit and took some beats, still I remained fairly confident.

I moved back down and between a series of my own stupid plays, bad reads, bad beats and trying to be extremely aggressive to knock my opponents off of good hands, I started losing- regularly. Needless to say, my confidence has taken such a hit that I almost can't remember how I was playing to win.

My confidence has taken such a hit that I've become almost timid and if there is one label I hate, it's tight/weak. Still, I'm playing that way. I've withdrawn most of my bankroll in a combination of stop-loss and trying to force myself to play better on shorter roll and I'm still not doing very well. It's so bad, I'm to the point of almost giving it up completely.

Since I'm sure everyone has gone through a down cycle, has anyone else gone through such a situation? If so, what did you do to get through it?
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03-07-2010 , 02:45 PM
You´ve got to be tough. Work on that. Stay on a low level (as I do), follow classic bank roll management recommendations. It takes longer time than one thinks to become good. Go to play money and win, kick some ***

Last edited by plaaynde; 03-07-2010 at 02:50 PM.
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03-07-2010 , 03:09 PM
Assuming you don't need poker income to live on, sounds like it's time for a break. Take a month off and clear your head. The games will be there when you are ready to come back.
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03-07-2010 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx
Assuming you don't need poker income to live on, sounds like it's time for a break. Take a month off and clear your head. The games will be there when you are ready to come back.

I would definitely recommend you take some kind of break. My confidence was a little dented in early Dec and I took a couple of weeks off, got away for a while and then came back feeling refreshed and ready to crush again. I probably play too much - a problem for a lot of online players - and I will be looking to take a small break/holiday pretty soon. You need it every once in a while to get away from the daily grind (it wears you down) and especially if you've been running -EV to clear the bad beats from your head. I think a month is perhaps a little excessive but, for sure, a couple weeks off would probably be a good thing.
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03-07-2010 , 04:27 PM
the one thing u did right is moving back down limits.


u also realize ur not playing well. u are playing weak tight, but good things
'
however the one day thing i think is u withdrew ur br. i think limiting ur br will only make u play weaker and tighter
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03-07-2010 , 04:35 PM
Just always play you game. Nothing else matters. There is no running bad or good. Theres just poker hands.
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03-07-2010 , 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anon1
My confidence has taken such a hit that I've become almost timid and if there is one label I hate, it's tight/weak.
Think carefully about why you hate that label.

Rather than aiming to play aggressively because you hate weak-tight play, aim to learn when aggressive play is the most profitable way to play.

Quote:
I've withdrawn most of my bankroll in a combination of stop-loss and trying to force myself to play better on shorter roll and I'm still not doing very well.
Stop-losses are helpful to impose self-control. Since it's poker money anyway, why not use the withdrawn money to hire a coach? Even a couple of hours coaching a month will improve your game, boost your confidence and help you see beyond the short-term results.

If you don't hire a coach, hang out in the psychology forum. Also Tommy Angelo has a good series on Deuces Cracked to help talk you through your downswings/wrong ways of thinking about the game.
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03-07-2010 , 06:49 PM
Thanks for all of the responses. I'm sure you all know how tough it is to try and play through it.

As far as hiring a coach, I did and a good one. The problem I had was molding my game to fit his guidance, even though it may have been only small changes. Trying to revert to a happy medium has been difficult for me.

If you combine that with the other factors I mention, maybe you can understand why I'm playing with lack of confidence now. I'm also having trouble picking my spots when playing a more tight game, although I'm not sure how aggresive. Again, lack of confidence is contributing to my lack of aggression as well.
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03-07-2010 , 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anon1
As far as hiring a coach, I did and a good one. The problem I had was molding my game to fit his guidance, even though it may have been only small changes. Trying to revert to a happy medium has been difficult for me.
Hmmm... so if you consider him a good coach, why don't you trust his recommendations for your game? I realize it's not an overnight process, but it sounds like you're no longer receiving coaching.
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03-07-2010 , 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ10
Rather than aiming to play aggressively because you hate weak-tight play, aim to learn when aggressive play is the most profitable way to play.
This.

On a side note re: coaching.......

A good coach (in all disciplines) will not attempt to impose on you his style of play rather he will take your strengths and polish them in order to make you better.

Just because someone is a winner doesnt mean theyll be a good coach.... and a bad coach can be very harmful if youre not careful.
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03-07-2010 , 07:31 PM
I do consider him a good coach and you're right, I'm no longer receiving coaching because it is quite pricey.

I did try to take his recommendation and as I've mentioned, it's been hard molding my style. Prior to coaching, I was more aggresive out of the blinds with and was 3-betting quite a bit more, which I virtually never do now.

I had been raising a lot early with a variety of hands, including more semi-trashy types that may or may not have warranted a raise from that position, say, from UTG or UTG +1. Ao34J, AoQJ3 and JJ23 for instance. My thoughts were to raise decent hands but a little loose to vary things up.

Both Predator and Campfirewest encourage a more passive style up front, mostly limping and then becoming VERY aggresive late, which has gotten me into trouble when I'm in a sticky situation against an aggressive blind after raising first in from the cutoff or button.

I'm still tempted to play hands like 5678 if I'm first in from either of those positions but pretty much everything I read and see, cautions against playing middle cards. I've tightened up more in either of those positions, only rarely playing hands like K234 or KK79. Obviously, a lot of those moves are playing/HUD dependent and I do rely on that.

A future consideration for me would be to hire a winning very loose-aggresive coach to gain perspective from that angle, assuming that I'm still playing.
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03-07-2010 , 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anon1
Since I'm sure everyone has gone through a down cycle, has anyone else gone through such a situation? If so, what did you do to get through it?
You need some wins.

Back off a bit and then look for a game where you will probably win. Just wait until you come across such a game. Study and observe in the interim.

Down cycles happen. That's what I do to turn the negative slope into a positive slope.

Keep in mind that I'm a recreational card player, not someone whose livelihood is dependent on income from poker.

Buzz
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03-07-2010 , 07:50 PM
I appreciate the encouragement. I defintely need some wins. If I could put together a winning session for a week, it would make such a difference.

I'm also frustrated because I've put so much effort into improving my game. I read a quite a bit of material and watched all of the Stox video on PLO8 and as of now, I'm still losing.

I'm a recreational player myself but I'd like to be a winning one.
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03-07-2010 , 07:55 PM
what limits are you playing and what are your stats? You're doing something fundamentally wrong if you can't win at low stakes over a large sample.
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03-07-2010 , 08:02 PM
.10/.25,

Overall, VPIP 18.7/ raise 6.6

Last year 19.1/6.0, W$SD 49.0

Since the start of the year, only changed slightly 18.4/7.2 48.0 W$SD

I agree, I'm definitely doing something wrong and my reasoning is in the initial post.
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03-07-2010 , 08:13 PM
ur W$SD is pretty low imo, it doesn't show the whole picture without the WTSD though. Your W$SD can be that low if you make a lot at non showdown, most people don't, I don't. This month so far I'm playing 25/11, WTSD 29%, W$SD 56.6%, 6.88bb/100 over 12k hands.
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03-07-2010 , 08:25 PM
Last year my WTSD was 26.5, this year is 24.7.

Your stats seem good. It's amazing how much difference the W%SD of just a small % makes.

One thing my coach recommended that I did like was increasing my raise %. He did emphasize more around the 20/9 range.
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03-07-2010 , 08:33 PM
ya if ur only going to showdown 25% of the time you should be winning way more than 48%, I'd think it would be closer to 60%. That's the first place I'd start going over hands, just look at river/showdown play and see if you are always calling in certain spots where you are beat or you are betting too thinly etc.
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03-07-2010 , 09:52 PM
The biggest difference in the stats above is the vpip and pfr, why would you not start there instead of the showdowns?
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03-08-2010 , 06:38 AM
because raising more marginal hands and playing more hands is not going to make you win if you are having problems with a solid base. 19/6 is reasonable and you should be able to win at those stats.
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03-09-2010 , 02:49 AM
I struggle with confidence when downswinging badly everyone does and if they tell you after losing for an extended time that they're fine with it, they're simply lying.

I just went through the worst single downswing of my life and even wrote a thread about it here. The thread was just a way to vent basically but gave me some insight.
Something you are seeking now which is great.

Here's some things Ive done in the past month that have helped me in poker and life. I still have had mediocre results online but they're not catastrophic and my life is much improved all the way around.

I have set a stop loss as well and it's not huge but If I hit it, I'm done! 50 bbs in a session even in the loosest of games at limit split pot is enough to know that I should go do something else with my time. I noticed my biggest losses where I was playing really long. Trying to get even and doing so desperately.

I started to see a therapist not for poker but because alot of people who spend tons of time online playing cards other than maybe a forum like this don't talk about how the wins/losses effect them, their confidence and life in general.
I have 5 close friends, a good family and a girlfriend but I don't wanna talk to them about losing 10% of my bankroll or losing quads to quads they wouldn't know what I was talking about or care.
The therapist just listens and it's good for me to have the venting session if you will.

I also limit myself to 2 tables currently, I read these threads of guys playing 6-9 tables
and that's great but applying it to my own game is just horrible for my win rate and I find myself not knowing who's winning, losing, tilting etc.

I have always known I could beat live poker but found it boring because u play so fewer hands but since returning to live action I've won 4-5 times and have made great money playing very small. The main difference is that the players are simply just there to have fun, some don't even know what qualifies as a low or why there's a button.
What I'm basically saying is that alot of people play poker for fun and a release find those players they out there even at small, big tables alike.

I dumped all 105k hands off PTO I personally played in the past year and kept the 56k of my opponents and before you think I'm insane you said something that relates to me and why I did this.
You said you open with 5678 and you know it's not right well like you I know I do things online I just shouldn't do like 3 betting kk23 out of the bb against a guy who only raises with AA or A2 double suited 2 way hands.
With knowing only my leaks and what I do poorly and what I do great I had no feel for what my opponents did poorly and what type of hands they played, were they bluffable or stations etc etc.
I can change my patterns and outwork the other players in order to win consistently someday.

Lastly I have discovered I have a bad habit of playing too many days and hours in a row due to insomnia. There have been many sessions I have played I simply don't remember half-asleep. Every major site has a self ban and I've been using it for 12 hour periods so when I can't sleep I now can't lose either.
I bring this up because a major winner at high limits told me he uses it for up to 7 days to simply review his game & to make sure he's not chasing losses.
I didn't know it existed until he told me about it.

Sorry I wrote so much but I hope something I wrote can help you.
Gl MILK
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03-09-2010 , 10:31 AM
Great post, Milk! Especially the following sentences catched me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by drnkyourmlkshk
Something you are seeking now which is great.
Quote:
I can change my patterns and outwork the other players in order to win consistently someday.
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03-09-2010 , 12:58 PM
Absolutely excellent reply. I'll defintely take it to heart. There is a lot of good stuff in there.

Again, I'd like to thank everyone for their responses. I'm very grateful to the community. It's things like this that make this site so great.

I've even had a couple of people reply to me privately, express sympathy for my situation and offered to talk, as well as bounce scenarios off of them. Even a regular that I play with almost daily offered analysis to me.

I have taken a bit of a step back in my game and made a concious effort to play better cards, as well as make better decisions.

I'm making progress. I was able to string together a couple of winning sessions and even though they were small wins, it makes a HUGE difference in my mental state. I'll cross my fingers.
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