Checked the equity as 50/50 on the turn bet. Am I overplaying the hand here? I imagined (perhaps foolishly) that the nut Ace gave me a ton of fold equity.


Poker Stars $4.00+$0.40 Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP2: t2770 46.17 BBs
CO: t1600 26.67 BBs
Hero (BTN): t5588 93.13 BBs
SB: t4977 82.95 BBs
BB: t2863 47.72 BBs
UTG: t1370 22.83 BBs
UTG+1: t3140 52.33 BBs
UTG+2: t3000 50 BBs
MP1: t3068 51.13 BBs

Pre Flop: (t90) Hero is BTN with K J 8 A
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t60, MP1 calls t60, 2 folds, Hero raises to t240, SB calls t210, 2 folds, MP1 calls t180

Flop: (t840) 2 T 5 (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets t840, SB calls t840, MP1 calls t840

Turn: (t3360) Q (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets t2400, SB folds, MP1 calls t1988 all in

River: (t7336) Q (2 players - 1 is all in)

Yer the donk clearly.. raising pre-flop? ICK. Continuing w/o a flush or real hi potential in a donkey limit tournament? Hah. No one is folding anything ever. Your bad.

thanks, yeah no one is ever folding anything. Leveling myself.

Fold equity? I don't think that exists at this level. I am sure it never has for me. I thought that I had fold equity once; I was mistaken

Who's the donk?
[x] You
[x] The other guy
[x] 98% of the field
[x] Me

I agree with not liking the preflop raise

In addition: This isn't a good flop for a naked ace bluff (with this hand) imo.

+1

At these stakes and this early, you're better off nut peddling and pressing your strong draws for the first few levels if not the first few hours. Fold equity or bluffing just doesn't pay until the later stages of these tournaments.

Thanks, that seems right.

Why does everyone hate the pre-flop raise? If we're going to play the hand at all isn't it better to try to isolate the limper with broadway cards and a weak low?

Wow. Isolate? Did you read any responses ITT? No one folds at this level. Your hand is garbage too.. why you would want to play it at a full table is beyond me. Hope you playing the 69+6 at FTP - I need more opponents like you it seems.

Thanks for your constructive response, wackjob. Considering I've played fewer than 1,000 hands of this game you probably do want opponents like me. Aside from your dick-waving, I discern your opinion as fold pf>call pf>raise pf?

Again, IF we're going to play the hand, isn't a pf raise better to maybe escape one way if we're beat? Would this not be better than calling?

Dont raise pre. If you are a good postflop player id rather limp a ton of hands. No reason to pot the flop. Once he calls the flop he is not folding the turn imo. No one is folding a flush here and i guess 2 pair either. You got called in 2 spots i just give up. Im actually shocked u had a decent chance of scooping.

All you have to do in these tourneys is play a ton of hands postflop and keep betting good hands. No reason for fancy plays.

As far as raising pre, I would rather limp a lot of hands. There are not a ton of flops that are good for AKJ8. You are just going to put yourself in bad spots and spew chips away

Thanks that makes sense appreciate it.

Naked ace bluff can work in omaha high but rarely works in high low because of low drawing possibilities.

In a $4 torny (yes i do play these) there is no such concept as FE till around about the final table.

Simple strat advice

1) make the nuts
2) bet the nuts
3) never ever ever bluff
4) $$$$$$$

oh yeah and fold AKj8 almost always - it is trash

Bob

Yes. In my humble opinion, you're overplaying the hand. I didn't look at the result in the spoiler.

Buzz

Your hand is terrible and you should fold preflop. The A8 is hardly worth anything as even if you make a low, someone who gets counterfeit can still beat you. With no suits, any straights or straight draws you hit are weak.

I call preflop for 60 with a stack of 6k with awful ppl. I believe you should be playing a ton of hands for cheap early on in a low buy in tourney. Most of the players who are bad will get out in the beginning and you need to take advantage of that while you can. Although AKJ8 is not a premium hand, the amount u have to call is insignificant compared to your stack. And any straight draw you hit will be the nut one I believe.

Thanks everyone that's great advice.

Horrible starting hand, just fold preflop and don't get yourself into trouble. For someone newer to the game, and hell basically everyone, I really advise sticking to premium hands in tournament play. This hand I would not even complete from the SB in a limped pot. It is awful, it has no playability. It can't make a wheel, the only nut hands you can make are full houses that are tough to get paid or straights that are always going to be vulnerable to flush and full house draws.

The only part of your play I do like is the naked A bluff. But once it fails here you can not continue. For those who tell you that bluffing a naked ace in plo8 isn't easily done or somehow suggest it is done less in plo8 than plo I will just nod and smile and take many a pot from that person. Bluffing the naked ace in plo8 works much better than plo because hand ranges are much more defined in so much as most playable hands involve an Ace and thus the nut card is very powerful. In plo a much wider range of hands are played and you will see much much more call downs with non nut flushes. Hell, yesterday I had a guy call me a cheater because I came over the top of his naked A bluff with top set.....that is how powerful the naked A bet is that he perceived his play as unbeatable and could not fathom how I could play back at him. Just pick your spots a little more carefully, low stakes tournaments on wheel drawing boards is probably not the place for these type of moves. You don't have to go get the chips in these donkaments, let the chips just come to you. A small stakes tournament is not the place to try advanced plays, just let people make their mistakes and sit back and collect no brainer pots.

i disagree with most of this. no one in a $4 plo8 tourney is folding any kind of flush, EVER. and at the end u say its not the place to use advanced plays but ur recommending the naked ace bluff and u say u like it. Its a god awful play in a low stakes tourney. Im not saying its never fine (if sure it could work perfectly in a deep stack big buy in but never here) and as far as the starting hand, there are plenty of worse hands pre and no point in arguing over whether he should limp for less than 1/100th of his stack pre

Ummm, yeah I think I explained this is probably not the place for making this play However, sadly that was the best part of the hand for our hero. At least that showed some logical thinking, the rest of the hand was god awful. I was getting at the point that some posters were insinuating that naked ace plays are not that valuable in plo8 and that is just beyond laughable. Hell, I draw to the naked ace it works so well in many cases. I would not recommend drawing to a naked ace to bluff in a tournament though, this is a very valuable cash game tactic though.

As for there being no point in arguing over whether or not to play the hand that is extremely short sighted. If you play sub par hands you get yourself into difficult decisions over and over again. You get yourself trapped into mediochre flops, and find yourself making bleeding flop calls or bets because you sort of hit your hand. Stick to playing legitimate starting hands and the game plays itself post flop. Especially at these stakes, opening up your starting range this wide is just a recipe for disaster. Just because your opponents are bad don't play down to their level.

your not playing down to their level. my first requirement was that you need to have good postflop skills. as long as u know which flops to get involved with and which flops not to then you are fine. no one says you need to call a pot sized bet with akj8 on a flop of k67 like thats not the point of limping. the point of limping is hitting a big hand or big draw where people will pay you off with next to nothing. again, there is no reason to get involved in mediocre spots, i agree, but that doesnt mean u have to wait for top notch hands when u are this deep and playing against the worst opponents early on.

Those are two outstanding posts, in my humble opinion! Thank you.

Really good advice! Outstanding advice!

Hero's starting hand is a below average starting hand, in spite of having an ace and a king. AKJ8-rainbow probably ranks among the worst AK** starting hands. Since it absolutely is a folder at a full table tournament, I can see how it could be characterized as "horrible." But if you call that hand "horrible," then I think you're stuck with calling most starting hands "horrible." Meh. Not worth quibbling about the meaning of a word, but I'd choose another adjective, maybe "mediocre." Meh. I don't like that either because someone might think of mediocre as playable, and AKJ8-rainbow is not playable in a full table tournament in my humble opinion.

I think the naked ace bluff is highly opponent dependent. We've had a number of threads about the play over the years.

But the overall advice in these two posts of yours that I have quoted is simply outstanding in my opinion. Right on! Thank you.

Buzz

Yes thank you all for the terrific posts, I learned something from them.

if you weren't pushing him off with a pot size bet on the flop you're not going to push him off on the turn

good job though, the guy probably thinks he's very good at plo8 with his opponent reads