Thoughts on flop play appreciated.

If turn comes brick or non-nut low?

No real read on any player


Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $119.35
Hero (BB): $100.00
UTG: $54.00
UTG+1: $151.05
UTG+2: $66.70
MP1: $98.00
MP2: $108.40
CO: $25.05
BTN: $51.80

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BB with A 4 Q 5
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $1, 2 folds, CO calls $1, BTN calls $1, 1 fold, Hero checks

Flop: ($4.50) K 2 8 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, CO bets $4.50, BTN raises to $18, Hero calls $18, UTG+2 calls $18, CO raises to $24.05 all in, BTN calls $6.05, Hero calls $6.05, UTG+2 calls $6.05

Turn: ($100.70) 4 (4 players - 1 is all in)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, BTN bets $26.75 all in, Hero calls $26.75, UTG+2 calls $26.75

River: ($180.95) T (4 players - 2 are all in)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks

It's pretty hard for me to find fault with the way you play a hand. Different individuals have different styles and there are mega game considerations involved in making decisions. I can tell you what I'd (as a rule) do differently.

OK. You have a nice starting hand, probably the best currently at the table.

I'd bet. Acting first is a bit awkward and generally disadvantageous. Anyhow, betting probably changes everything. It puts you on the offensive rather than the defensive. You have the nut club draw plus the second nut low draw with back-up. You have a great fit with this flop.

OK. Hard to say how that would have been different if you had bet first.

Maybe BTN raises simply because Hero and UTG+2 have already checked and BTN hopes they will fold and thus he will have succeeded in isolating CO. CO bet the pot after the first two checks, perhaps hoping to steal the pot himself. I wonder what cards they all hold.

Now comes an unfortunate aspect of being out of position. Once Hero calls, UTG+2 may expect CO to also call behind him. CO might be thinking he's getting ~3 to 1 full pot odds to call. And then as it turns out CO goes all-in and everybody is in the pot for a total of $25.05 each.

This may not even have much to do with the cards anyone holds.

Not a particularly good card for Hero, but not a disaster either. Now you have the second nut low without counterfeit protection and have to think someone must have the nut low for the betting to have proceeded like this.

For high, basically you now have half the chances you had before this turn card to make a club flush.

Rats! Damned short stackers! One of the things you want when you're drawing is implied pot odds. When you hit your flush you want to collect and when you miss you want to exit cheaply. And now, through no fault of your own (except maybe it wouldn't have happened this way if you hadn't checked this flop), you've lost some or most of your implied pot odds (since two opponents are all in). Still, you're not dead for low and you have a decent draw at the nut high. And if you call and UTG+2 calls, there will be $180 or so in the pot. You're getting roughly five to one full pot odds and two to one half pot odds. Alas, with all this action you can't know if your low is good or not - but from here it doesn't look good.

Thus you're drawing for clubs with seven non-pairing outs and 35 bricks. (I don't want to count the pairing outs one way or the other). I make it five to one against making your flush and assuming UTG+2 has a nut low, not unreasonable with this action, you have no implied pot odds.

So it's pretty much strictly 5 to 1 against with a pay off of 2 to 1. Those are bad odds. You win two once for every five times you lose one. Not good. And there's the second nut low thing.

Rats. This is an awful spot for Hero! You need those implied pot odds when you're drawing for flushes and the damned short stackers have taken them away from you by getting all-in. Nothing much you can do about it. You don't have favorable odds to continue.

Fold.

Buzz

I bet that flop. Most times 1-2 players will fold and we are Heads-Up with the 2nd nut low and the NFD.

I'd prefer betting this pot directly since we are in the BB and no one can put us on a hand here. As played, however, I think your hand is in trouble very often and the low variance play is to fold (especially since you have invested 0) after a bet and raise in front of you. The problem here is that while you have a nut hi DRAW you don't have the nut lo draw (save a 3 hits, but you get what I mean). You have a big hand, but you have a big drawing hand only and at least 2 players are liking this flop a lot and you still have one player to act after you must call the bet and raise. You are often going to be up against two hands that have you worked both ways - a better made hi and someone with the nut lo draw, and many times you are going to be up against it even worse - a made hi WITH the nut lo draw and another guy with a big draw and or a big made hand. One other problem is this: it is very likely your opponents hold many of your outs and are blocking you which makes your ev worse.

So in the end, I think you should have led out on the flop directly, but as played, I think you should fold when it comes back to you for a bet and a PSB reraise on the flop. I don't think you should have put yourself in the position to get to this turn in the fashion you did, but getting there with that card I definitely am not going to committ any more chips if I don't have to. I really wish since you had decided to call all those big bets on the flop that you would have got it in on the flop - your hand basically looks like a big, expensive fishing expedition where you are the fish in the hand just c/c with a nice drawing hand, but afraid to get aggressive. Either be a bit tight and fold the flop or be a LAG and get it in.

This hand reminds me of a hand I played not too long after I started playing PL. I was in the CO with the nut flush draw and 2nd nut lo draw. On the flop I bet the pot with this big draw and the button (a reasonable, decent player) PSB reraised me, I shoved and we got stacks in right there (which as a LAGgy play was fine IMO) only to see that villain turned over the nut lo draw with flopped 2 pairs. I got lucky and sucked out the perfect wheel/flush card and scooped, but boy I was taking the worst of it when I got my stack in.