If they added Hi Lo Spin and Go's I would snap quit playing sit and go's. O8 hypers are already high variance enough. They are already putting a hurt on sng volume for other formats including O8 hypers as well as making them tougher with recs flocking to these games.

Think you mean the hyper 08 format (and hypers in general) is destroying all other SNG 08 poker in the first place. Even in cash it's now a race to the bottom - NL08 short stack cap.

Spin and Go is just another form of hypers the only difference really is it is 3 handed not 6. There's actual more skill 3 handed than 6 IMO. There is certainly more of an edge in these than 08 hypers at the minute and I am not even very proficient at NLHE.

Edge is one thing....variance is another. As far as O8 hypers killing other forms of O8 sngs. Sure you could say that but it has more to do with the exit of American players from the player pool than anything. Its not like anyone was making any real money from O8 sngs post Black Friday before O8 hypers.
Sure In a ideal world I would prefer to play 9 man and 18 man turbos over 6 man hypers but that is unrealistic. Nobody was playing above 15$ post black friday and pre hypers.

Also NLO8 cap is only at 3-6 and has clearly been a failed experiment.

I am aware of the difference between edge and variance J .

In fact I stated, incorrectly, that these were exactly the same as 08/NLHE 6 max hypers other than the tourney size. In fact, the blinds are every 3 minutes rather than 2, and there is no ante. That said, there are 3 players rather than 6 so you are in the blinds twice as often obviously so it's hard to tell. The fact is that it is likely to attract more fish because of the lure of the variable tourney prize and that therefore these could potentially in the short term be more lucrative than equivalent level 08 hypers. It's like having a permanent golden shower promotion in a game that actually can have significant equity advantages compared to 08. There is also significantly more postflop play.

It all depends on what VPPs there are available as to whether they will attract grinders in the L-T.

In regards to the CAP games - my point wasn't in regards to the success or not. I can't comment on that. My point is that it just demonstrates the thought processes of Pokerstars in regards to the games they are running. Shorter stacks and faster structured SNGs leads to higher volume and therefore more rake. More all ins in cash equals higher rake.

The only thing Stars is doing is giving the people what they want. We live in a fast paced culture where everybody wants everything fast and poker is no different. All of these fast pace and now jack pot games are just to please the rec players.

Yup. Couldn't agree more. Bit depressing really.

This is both a simplification and a generalisation and I am fairly sure you are aware that is the case.

People are individuals and want different things.

Amaya the recent purchaser of Poker Stars and Full Tilt on the other hand is a publicly traded company and public traded company's primarily want one thing.

I think we are presently seeing a lot of changes that represent Amaya trying to justify and add value to their purchase.

Of course we are all individuals and we all want different things. I clearly stated I would prefer to be playing 9 man turbos over 6 man hypers but If I regged 9 mans all day I would be the only one. Would that be any different if hypers did not exist? Probably not much. There certainly would not be any where near enough traffic to do it full time. Obviously from a Stars perspective the addition of O8 hypers was done partially with the intention of making the site more profit but if they had not added them I likely would not even be still playing on stars. hypers are far and away the most popular brand of sng stars has ever offered among recs because the majority of recs want to play fast games. I liked playing sngs so I switched to hypers along with a lot of other sng regs. I would imagine a lot of us in the sng community would still prefer 9 mans to be the most popular format but it is clearly not. Like it or not the majority of players want to play fast games so stars is giving them what they want. Its not just all about getting the most rake possible out of us. If anything Stars saved the O8 sng players by adding O8 hypers because with out it there probably would be no such thing as an O8 sng pro atm. Stars didnt kill O8 9 mans Black Friday did.

Stars didnt invent spin and go sngs either. They seen them on another site and seen that they were fun and popular for recs so they brought them to PS.

And on the Amaya thing...People need to stop worshiping the Sheinbergs like they were some kind of saints. They were trying to make as much money as they could while they were in control just like any other big business and no different than Amaya. Usually that will mean offering whatever is most popular among the general public and of course Amaya is going to bring in casino games because that is the world they come from and that is their expertise.

The rule description to the right of the list of stakes is titled 'Spin & Go - Hold'em', which makes me hope than Hold'em will eventually be not the only game having Spin & Gos. NLO8 is the next natural candidate. Fingers crossed. (Or maybe they wanted to outline that the game played in Spins is Hold'em and included that into the title instead of the text for some reason.)

I can't be sure but I think its going to be hard to have a good edge in spin and goes.... IMO the most value in 6m Hypers comes from correct bubble play. Now since you can play for chipEV in S&G's their is no ICM factor. It's way harder to do correct ICM decisions as you have to fold +chipEV hands a lot. I mean: they take out ICM AND directly start 3-handed with the same rake, so why should I ever think this is going to be more profitable than a 6m HT with ICM factors. I personally like S&G's and would probably grind them with huge variance if I'd have a good edge, I just don't think that will happen.

so u think u guys will be going for sne nest year then? who is in so far?

Pretty sure from the comments that no one other than myself has put any volume into these. There is more skill and postflop play, but that's probably because NLHE hypers play differently from the all in pre of NL08 hypers.

There is also more play HU. Your bubble has effectively been switched to HU play. The edge does not come from exploiting 3 handed bubble scenarios but exploiting how bad someone is HU. You can be attrocious at HU in 6 max hypers as you have already made the money. Spin and Go 08 will be a game that suits HU specialists.

In the end, NLO8 is the next game they will probably introduce. Unfortunately, you will probably have to start playing them as they drain the recs from 08 6 max.

The only downside will be that you draw are more likely to draw 2 other regs because of the smaller player pool in 08. However, with it being effectively a permanent Golden Shower promotion there will be more fish overall. I don't get that these would be less profitable than the 1-5% reg fests at all 6 max hypers these days. I frankly think that's a pretty uninformed statement.

A "golden shower" is the act of urinating on another person.

Is it figuratively that bad?

(Surely an online site didn't choose that figure of speech for a promotion).

Buzz

You would probably be the only person I have spoken to who would denied that the introductions of 08 hypers has had a seriously detrimental effect on the volume 9/18 mans 08 sngs.

It may be true that no one was getting rich of 08 9/18 mans but for many they were a vital part of their income and the ability to grind these in tough times has kept lots of MTT players rolls alive. In addition to this some people did actually make a living from them.

It is also still debatable whether someone can make a living from 08 hypers in the long term as they are still new. Many games are great when they are first introduced but either stop running or the economy supporting them is not sustainable.

My personal opinion which I have generally withheld from revealing due to having respect for everyone who makes a living from 08 is that 08 hypers will prove to have a negative impact on the o8 economy. I suspect they suck up too much money in rake for anyone but the top guys to do well in them and they allow weaker players to go broke way too quickly.


You do not have to think the Sheinbergs were saints to have respect for how they handled their operation and steered it to be by the clear market leader.

Their is an analogy often used used to describe how businesses can change as they grow based on the humble apple pie:

A company start making the best apple pies in the market. They cram in the most apple pies into a slice as possible and they use a great quality of butter in their pastry. After a while they become very successful because of these great quality pies that people love and have come to trust.

One day someone in an office runs a calculation as realises that if they take out one piece of apple from each slice of pie they can save xxx thousands of $. So they do and a little way down the line the same number guy says we can use margarine instead of butter in our pastry and make even more profit so of course they do. Soon enough this company's pies are distinctly average.

Poker Stars recent move to faster formats, swapping out rebuy MTTS for multiple entry MTT's, the upcoming introduction of casino style games and the cutting of MTT guarantees across the board are all moves designed to make Stars more profitable.

I am more than a little shocked you are aware of this crude terminology Buzz !

No. The promotion is not called Golden Shower (fortunately)! It is my ironic take on the promotion itself. It makes you play a lot more for the hope of being significantly rewarded when your tournament goes "Golden". When they do, a lot of money is added to the prize pool e.g you could be playing a $15 sng and the prize pool is $1000 dollars rather than the normal $90. It acts as an incentive for regular players to play a really high volume of tournaments because the fields are softer, and the reward if your tourney going "Golden" can be massive. The downside is that after the 1st running of this promotion Stars reduced the payouts and the frequency of those payouts I believe but people still had the expectation it would be the same as it's first incarnation. Therefore, it felt like you were being wee'd on by Stars, hence why I call it "Golden Shower".

It's one of those things that never appealed to me personally, but I'm aware of the meaning.

Ah. I see.

An apt figure of speech then.

Thanks for the explanation.

Buzz

Game over

so its actually your honest opinion that exploiting someone HU when you will mostly have 10-15 bb will make up for 3-handed bubble play ? u willmostly play another reg HU and nobody is going to have an edge lol, just very, VERY smallish edges.

I have just finished the lol'ing at the irony of the above post (smallish edges, 6 max hyper reg lmfao) and the dodging of all the actual points to cherry pick and put in bold a statement that I made myself (thanks my eyesight at 30 is not great cheers)!

I therefore have 4 questions:

1. Have you played a Spin and Go?
2. Do you know the structure of a Spin and Go?
3. Have you ever played Golden Shower hypers?
4. Why do you play HU hypers?

the format for spin and gos is actually slower than a normal hyper because there are no antes at any stage in the tourney. Despite this, players are still shoving pre for 25 BBs in the first level which is exploitable in NLHoldem (and in a NLO8 version that pays 1st only).

what is this "golden shower hyper " - thing about ? i have no clue

^ It's a 3-max 2-card winner-takes-all hyper with a fixed buy-in but prize pool randomly selected at the start; see the ** Official Spin & Go's Discussion Thread **

I know what a spin and go is,but streity asks if I've played a spin and go ( I have ) and then asks if I have played a "golden shower hyper" and I wonder if he means golden sng ?

HI. very funny thread here imao. cfr banned people i wont name here couldn'stop laughing at some reply's .

Played 3 spin& go's ,won the 3. Always the same strategy. After a few hands the 2 others killed each other then went to HU vs the chipleader who has a 2/1 chiplead, but they suck at HU so ... ^^

But i dont like the spin& go's because they are not deep enough., the only thing i like is the jackpot wheel turning before it begins

That's also a side effect of Amaya gaming acquiring pokerstars and fulltilt.

Amaya is more focused on casino's, jackpot's, everything but they are not specialized in poker.

Now to me, they try to find some kind of " compromise" between both, now they integrated a jackpot wheel which gives you the payout of the spin and go in PS, tommorrow they will probably create a poker dice game on PS.

And you are right, this attracts fishes who were playing sit'ngo's, and the sharks have to eat each other on the sit'n go's tables since the average joe is going to play roulette, or a spin & go, or whatever instead of playing poker.

Now, the good thing with this acquisition, is that Amaya gaming, they are in a good shape , in the US. THere are rumors, they could get a licence almost everywhere. In other words, there should be soon enough, us players back on PS, and that will be great, the market will be redesigned and there will be a lot more traffic. And ultimately, I hope that AMAYA will buy bovada, so that almost all online us players play on ps.