ICM for hi/lo is exactly worth the same as it is in holdem.

The split pot makes it different. In "ICM" it's much about potential busting on the bubble, the split pot makes a bust less probable, making equity more important (in my opinion). You can't use a holdem ICM calculator for omaha hi/lo, nobody has published a functioning omaha hi/lo ICM calculator. You may mean something else with "ICM" though, it's a much used word . Probably you are right from a theoretical standpoint, I'm looking for if "ICM" can be correctly calculated in a practical setting.

no, you didnt understand ICM then completely. gametype/format etc etc are completely unimportant for ICM. ICM is about how much value your stack has.

But how do you calculate it, how to match up specific scenarios? How do you use the information? Without that, what's the point? If the short stack holds on because of the split pot nature of the game, how much equity should you give up then with the second biggest stack on the bubble? It's not as straigthforward as in holdem. Maybe more important though is how to take into account that if you, with the second biggest stack, go all-in with a better equity hand against the big stack, then the split-pot may save you from busting on the bubble. But how effectively are you saved, where's the cutoff? Everybody is more or less guessing.

you have the exact same scenarios as you have in holdem, you may understand it now.

example: you shove... so now you need to know foldequity and the range villain is calling with. so if we take out the possibility that 2 or more players call you have 4 possible results. you get everybody to fold ( so you gain the blinds ), you scoop after u'r called, you lose after u'r called or you split after u'r called. its exactly the same as in holdem, just that the percentages of that events differ A LOT. still they all have an own percentage to happen and can therefor be calculated ICM wise.

Can you present one single example when you really are doing it? Without a calculator you never get the big picture, if it takes "forever" to simulate one single scenario. I have made easily done equity calculations with PPT hundreds, maybe thousands of times, alternatively look at the equities PT4 presents, even easier, still just starting out.

Look that line was not meant to be taken completely serious. I have no idea how often I actually cash in the 5 rebuy. The point was that I have played 4k+ O8 mtts online including many regular speed O8 mtts. Quantum probably already knows this. In fact I already posted our regular speed O8 mtts stats on stars compared to each other before he caught some heat in them but he still continues to post about my inability to play slow blinded structure mtts.

LOL at me not understanding variance...give me a fn break

The post was made for quantum so I dropped to his level for a line or 2...What does it matter to you?

plaaynde what do you do with aa23 in the bb with 1400 chips with sb having 100 chips and Button shoves with 1500 chips and the sb folds. Obv this is a drastic example but acting like icm is not a part of O8 hypers because there are split pots is pretty ignorant to how the game is actually played. I mean if you didnt care about ICM you could probably call almost every shove from the bb in O8 hypers from 5 handed on and it would be chip ev the best play. The hand in hand 1 for example in quantums post about biood. Here is the problem with that hand from an icm standpoint. The chips in your stack represent your $ equity in the sng. If a player bust the chips in your stack are worth more $ so you dont want to needlessly gamble them during the 1st blind level. I have already showed why his hand was bad call chip ev wise. Btw his hand is a dog against a 50% range. How wide does he think Biood is really? The bigger problem is he is only ever flipping here so it can never be +$ ev. Its not worth it in terms of $ev this early on in the sng. He can get a flip whenever and more importantly equities of all hands in O8 run close and this is why It is alway going to be more +$ev/+chip ev to be the one shoving compared to the one calling because fold equity does not exist when you are calling.

The main reason why players from other formats struggle with transitioning to hypers is that they are used to viewing hands in terms of playability as opposed to viewing hands in terms of their actual equities in all in situations. A823 is a playable hand in many O8 formats but in all in situations its a dog against 4456.

I dont want to do example, takes quite some time.

when I do I use: http://www.icmpoker.com/icmcalculator/ and propokertools (its not just showing equity, it shows you how often every scenario will happen). put in the starting stacks, get your value and then put in every result calculate value of all of them, after that you need to run the percentages of the events against the value of the result. quite some work.

I think you basically are fighting for your life right from the start in the hypers. You just don't get enough of even decent hands before the blinds start eating you alive. The structure is shallow even from the start, blinds go up extremely rapidly. Bottom line is you can't just sit there folding, probably not even the first two minutes.

About the bb-thing: not automatically positive chips ev quite from the start when shoving, depends highly on the hand later on also. Have spent some time with that.

I probably have a different approach to hypers than most do currently but I think a lot of players are far too concerned with what they have for a hand a lot of the time. In a game where equities run so close together what you have for a hand just doesn't matter a lot of the time. I use a fairly advanced HUD when Im really grinding Hypers and when deciding whether or not to shove a hand my main focus is how the players behind me will react when I shove based on my history with them. If I shove q792 or whatever from the button or sb Im not just doing it randomly Im doing it because I think the players in the blinds are folding enough for it to be profitable for me. I know a lot of hyper regs dont use huds and just play a certain range based on each situation and they can be successful doing this for the time being but thats mostly because everyone including myself is still really bad and most players just are not able to exploit other players ranges properly. O8 hypers are still relatively new and people are still really bad. The average Holdem hyper grinder would laugh at the lack of sophistication at which we are approaching these games.

Im just trying to help you out and give you some advice. If you disagree so be it as everyone is entitled to their opinion. GL in the games

I appreciate your advice, thanks. I'll try to incorporate it. But ICM shouldn't make a man more of a pussy than what's profitable

GG

PS: I don't use a HUD btw. It annoys me, and takes away attention from things I feel matter more. I totally have a "mathematical" and actual table dynamics approach. Guess I can grind the way I do until some book about hypers is published...

I think this post is spot on.

@JUICY: I'd call with AA23 In the BB with 1400 chips against button 1,5k shove and sb having 100 and insta punch my wall when getting scooped

ha yeah I would probably do the same

Thanks biood, you gave me the courage to admit I would too.

You always like to win also, not only non-bubble-bust. Worst thing is you could still lose even if winning the all-in. All's about probabilities.

Bringing it back to the A238 Im not here saying I have never made that call before and in fact I made a lot of bad calls like this when I started playing hypers but over time I eventually worked out as to why I was making mistakes by calling too light in certain spots and have attempted to adjust accordingly.

Juicy, man, you usually talk a great game but you are so full of **** lately. You proclaim a mantra here that presents itself as slightly on the discrete side of valour - but in reality you are a psychopathic fish, at times every bit as wide as ANYONE I have EVER played, including biood and NOT restricted to HTs.

So here is the problem with your analysis of the A 2 3 X vs 4 4 5 6 hand - there were 3 players and I was favourite. I had 49% for low + high equity, biood was a 65/32 dog for high and had a huge 1.8% shot at making nut low. So all of what you say after that is irrelevant, saying it's not worth it, can't be + $EV.

You must show me an A 2 3 X fold pre in any game at any stage because I'm a sceptic - I don't believe you have ever folded that hand under any circumstance. Heck search your HHs and find me some A 2 3 X folds pre, please. I know you know I fold A 2 3 X pre all the time because I generally show folks to buy future fold-equity from them.


I know, us fish idiots that actually look at the cards before making decisions.

Wow, finally I think I'm beginning to understand your philosophy.

Bull ****. You blindly shove.

Again utter bull ****. I TELL you, I SHOW you that I select auto-call when I'm in the BB and you are button or most pertinently, SB, YET YOU JUST SHOVE, SHOVE, SHOVE for YEARS. Not a few games, YEARS man. You shove my BB way more than 50%. So full of ****, so predictable and so pre-meditated, but keep talkin man

How about we do a prop bet for who can win the most from sngs from July 1 to the end of the year... Loser quits Pokerstars.

Cmon man you play everyday so you must consider yourself somewhat of a professional. You think Im a fish and I think you are a fish. If you want to come on here acting like you are some sng expert than step up and prove it. I legit would quit poker if I lost but seriously you would be drawing pretty much dead.

I love this thread.

I wonder if he'll ever just disapear

digressing from the personal attacks and other drivel that gets posted by a certain individual, i'm going to try to return the conversation to 'content'


a more thorough (and certainly different)example then the AA23 one might be:

you have Ax2x4yQz (thats AQ42 single suited, suited ace), its 3 handed, you have 900 chips, and you are big blind.

blind level is 50/100 w/ 10 antes

these 5 circumstances are a constant throughout the example.

the particular chipstacks vary, there are 8 example chipstack dynamics(A-H) as follows
BTN, SB, BB
A 200,1900,900
B 400,1700,900
C 600,1500,900
D 800,1300,900

E 1900,200,900
F 1700,400,900
G 1500,600,900
H 1300,800,900

action (1) BTN shoves and SB folds, since you have the same hand, the same number of chips, in the same position facing the same action do you act the same in each of the 8 examples (A1-H1)?

action (2), BTN shoves and SB calls, you have the same hand, the same number of chips,in the same position, now the action has changed, do you act the same in each 8 of the examples(A2-H2), is your action the same as when sb folded(A1-H1)?

* btw the player dynamic is consistant no matter what it is, its the same BTN, SB for each example

SO, i wonder, 16 examples, WHEN did you call and when did you fold? and WHY?

new example:
what if you no longer have the constant 900 chips, but rather you are SB, facing a BTN shove (A3-H3) when are u calling, shoving, folding?



***if u are up to pondering another 24 situations, change the hand to Ax3yJyJz (thats JJ3A single suited, suited J)